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  #11  
Old 12-30-2005, 04:30 AM
RockPile RockPile is offline
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Default Re: Am I Playing These Wrong???

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Am I misplaying these. Should I play differently to make my opponents make mistakes?

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yes
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  #12  
Old 12-30-2005, 04:44 AM
shant shant is offline
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Default Re: Am I Playing These Wrong???

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Typical players reraise in this spot only with AA, KK, QQ, or maybe AK. This is a narrow enough range of hands to allow the preflop raiser to play his hand more profitably than if he had no idea what your hand was, which is the case when you just call.

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You should add JJ/TT and sometimes AQs to that range. Also, how does a 3-bet make it easier for QQ-TT or dominated hands that hit a pair to play postflop? In my experience opponents do very little thinking about my range and more about their hand and the board.

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In the situation you describe, just calling a three-bet instead of capping, the situation is essentially the same (out of position against a preflop raiser heads up with a big pair), except you have already raised preflop and your opponent will be able to rule out hands like small pocket pairs, suited connectors, AXs, QJ/JT, and other such hands that people play from the blinds but don't raise preflop (unless you're talking about cutoff/button vs blinds play, which is a completely different story; I assume you're talking about a legitimate raise.)

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The situation is nowhere near the same. They have shown a lot of strength by 3-betting your raise, a lot more than a sismple preflop raise. You can be sure they will give you action postflop and "feigning weakness" will disguise your hand against a likely very strong hand.

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Furthermore, while I can see why many people might disagree with my advice, I doubt that it is "awful" because Ciaffone and Brier suggest slowplaying in a similar situation in <u>Middle Limit Holdem Poker</u> on page 277, chapter 32, problem 8. The UTG player raised, you're on the button with AA, and the blinds look like they're about to fold. They say that "This is a perfect spot to slowplay preflop."

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That's all well and good but I play online and I'm not sure when the blinds look like they'll fold.

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Yes, value is important, but when you're only talking about one more small bet, it's probably worth it in this specific situation to call because the deception you are creating will often win you multiple small bets in the long run because you give away nothing about the strength of your hand. Plus, you can almost always go for the checkraise on the flop and get back the small bet you "lost" preflop. Yes, I agree that slowplaying like this in too many situations is a bad idea and will cost you value. If you had two or more opponents, or if your hand was QQ, reraising is probably better most of the time. But in some specific situations like this one, slowplaying can be very effective.

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I agree with you here when talking about your raise being 3-bet as I feel it is a totally different situation. Even then, lately I have been told by very good players that I might as well just cap preflop.
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  #13  
Old 12-30-2005, 04:45 AM
HighStakesPro HighStakesPro is offline
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Default Re: Am I Playing These Wrong???

To bravos and shant, consider this: the next time you're going to call someone's advice "awful" or "WEAK SAUCE", remember that even if you happen to be totally accurate in your assessment, at least my advice is analytical, well-organized, and well-intended, unlike the "advice" of RockPile in this post. The whole purpose of these forums is to chat about various topics and inform people who are looking for help by providing them with different perspectives and points of view, not proving who's the smartest or best poker player. So when you do disagree, at least be civil and respectful about it, instead of denigrating the other person's point of view with excessively subjective descriptions like "awful" or "WEAK SAUCE" (whatever that means).
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  #14  
Old 12-30-2005, 04:47 AM
shant shant is offline
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Default Re: Am I Playing These Wrong???

I apologize. I did not mean to come off harsh. It was my immediate reaction to advice to only call with premium hands from the blinds because at these levels it is best to just push your hands for value against players who will go too far with inferior hands.

You're right that your post was well thought out and again, my bad for my choice of words.
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  #15  
Old 12-30-2005, 04:48 AM
Schwartzy61 Schwartzy61 is offline
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Default Re: Am I Playing These Wrong???

*Grunch

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds, Button folds, UTG+2 calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

This one looks good to me. Hard to fold this against an unknown.


[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

3-bet preflop, outside of that not much you can do.


[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero folds, MP3 calls.

River: (11.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't have capped it here. Check/raise the flop. Call down from there if he 3-bets. That is if he is a real maniac that will bet/raise after the flop with as little as A-high. Otherwise he isn't really a maniac and you should probably release on the turn like you did...


[ QUOTE ]
Hand 4
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (9 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet/call this river...flush doesn't really scare me because it was runner runner.
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  #16  
Old 12-30-2005, 05:17 AM
shermn27 shermn27 is offline
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Location: IL
Posts: 173
Default Re: Am I Playing These Wrong???

Thanks for the advice. In general, it sounds like I played okay, just suffered some negative variance (it hurts a lot more in a 200+ BB downswing, but I am sure you have all been there before).

As for the comments: I appreciate the thoughts on the obviously controversial slowplaying of the kings. I should have that I "never" slowplay kings except in the exact situation on very few occasions.

I never thought about waiting until the flop to try to isolate the maniac. I was hoping my cap would have done it. Too bad if I had played it that way I might have gotten the pot the the MP caught a 10 to get it. Great advice.

Most seem to suggest betting the river with the pocket jacks hand. I chose not to not b/c of the flush, but rather because it seemed that the only card he could have to still be in the hand was a 3. I knew I did not want to be checkraised here so I checked to either 1) save from being checkraised by a better hand or 2) induce a bluff from a worse hand. I thought it was one of those situations where he either made his hand and would bet or didn't and would bluff at my check. I do however recognize that he could have a hand like 6 7 and just check, but I felt he would bet or bluff with just about anything. (As it turns out he of course had a 3 b/c he called a PFR w/ 53o. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyhow, using this logic, I chose to check/call the river. To me this seems correct. Any thoughts?

Thanks to all those who have provided helpful comments.

Shermn27
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  #17  
Old 12-30-2005, 06:00 AM
HighStakesPro HighStakesPro is offline
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Default Re: Am I Playing These Wrong???

Not only did he call a raise with 53o, but he didn't raise you on the turn when it was probable that he had you beat. Remember that he probably would have called you down if the flop had been 863, and he will make other unprofitable types of plays as well. If your opponent is typical, he will fold garbage like 53o and obviously many other hands as well. A typical opponent might call with A3s on the button, but probably would not raise if you bet on the flop. Even if he would, this is the only possible hand that he would play that way, while there are many ways that he could have top pair or some straight draw including a seven, or even 99/TT. On balance you will wil a lot more by betting than just check/calling. If the river was an 8, that would make checking a much more reasonable choice, since he is likely to have top pair, although it is not out of the question to bet anyway.
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  #18  
Old 12-30-2005, 12:39 PM
Songwind Songwind is offline
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Default Re: Am I Playing These Wrong???

*grunch*
Hand 1 seems fine to me.

Hand 2 - why didn't you raise this preflop? Raise KK before the flop until the button falls off. I also bet this river. With your aggression, I think that UTG+1 would have 3-bet you on the turn if he had a J. It's not like there's anyone else for him to scare away.

Hand 3:
I just call the 3-bet preflop and check/call the flop.

Hand 4:
Why slow down on the river? Do you think he raised you and called a 3-bet with a pair of 3s on that flop? I don't think he's slowing down with a set of 8s, 3s, OR 5s when it's heads up on the turn, so I don't think he's got a boat here, either. I would wager your jacks up is good against his 8s up.
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  #19  
Old 12-30-2005, 12:51 PM
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Default Re: Am I Playing These Wrong???

Grunch:

Hand 1: Call is ok. If your read is this guy is a passive, then I could fold since the pot is small, w/o a read I call and add a not that this guy draws to gutshot str8.

Hand 2: You have to raise preflop as I am sure other replies are saying. Calling on the river with such a small pot and UTG+1 wakes up totally depends on reads. Pot is small, and I've folded in this spot against passives many times.

Hand 3: I waffle on the flop on this hand. Against Tight Passives I like to bet out, against the LAGtard I think I'm c/f more often than not when I miss the flop. Not saying this is the right thing to do, just what I do.

Hand 4: I like every play but the River. Villian may have trips, but he could be on a A8 or K8. Might be a spew on my part, but I bet this street too.
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  #20  
Old 12-30-2005, 02:56 PM
HighStakesPro HighStakesPro is offline
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Default Re: Am I Playing These Wrong???

Just something to think about, if you're adventurous enough in these situations and want to get as much value as possible from these type of hands, you can try a reraise preflop and then also checkraising the flop to get an extra small bet in. Then if you really want to be devious you can try checkraising the turn too! I wouldn't recommend this most of the time but it's an interesting idea, most of the hold'em literature that I've read says that when somebody raises you on the flop and then checks on the turn, it means they're weak because the turn is the more expensive street, so maybe give this idea a try.
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