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  #21  
Old 10-27-2005, 12:20 PM
bozlax bozlax is offline
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Posts: 365
Default Re: 1/2 PokerStars

From your previous post:

[ QUOTE ]
I say call PF because you are in LP and the guy usually limps with a pair and if he doesn't have a pair, then you are not that much of an underdog since he is likely to play A/Kx even unsuited.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, are you assuming that he doesn't have a decent pocket pair because he raised? Just because one time he didn't REraise with KK?

Second, just because he doesn't have a pocket pair, what about AK/AQ that have you dominated? What about Ax that might have you reverse-dominated? The problem with AJ/KJ/QJ types of hands is that you frequently catch a piece of the flop and either wind up folding, wondering if you folded the best hand (this hand), or paying a lot of money to show down a second-best hand (this hand, again, if Hero had called the river).

Finally, at higher levels you can make money by playing in a unexpected fashion. It's because your opponents are paying attention to your play, and so you can make them think you have one thing when you really have another. Even the good players in micros are rarely this observant. Up to 1/2 Full, the best way to earn is to play ABC poker.
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  #22  
Old 10-28-2005, 04:46 AM
HighStakesPro HighStakesPro is offline
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Default Re: 1/2 PokerStars

Okay, thanks everyone for the input, now I'm going to address some of the things that were said.

1. While you guys are free to discuss anything you want, and I don't discourage anyone from offering advice, the main point of this post was to examine the decision to fold on the river, not to debate how to play AJ suited in the cutoff behind an MP raiser. I know that most books will suggest folding, but after seeing him limp with kings earlier, and limp with nines, I presumed he was most likely to have high cards. 1/2 players are not the "vary-your-play" type, as a rule. Also, the fact that he had played somewhat unpredictably and aggressively with weak hands after the flop (KK on AJ6A board and AJ on Q92 board), it seemed likely that he raised with two unpaired high cards which might be as low as king ten or so. Plus, I consider myself a winning player with a significant edge in that game, so my ability to outplay other players the flop makes it profitable for me to play otherwise marginal hands.

2. As far as 3-betting, I have played limit hold'em for several months (I'm at 1/2 now because of poor bankroll management in the past) and I am definitely aware of this "isolation play", but the 1/2 tables in general, including the one I was at, tend to call raises and reraises in the blinds with mediocre hands too often to make an isolation play effective. If I had to look into their minds and try to think like them, I would guess that they see a large pot developing because of the multiple raises, and call with any kind of drawing hand, not considering their pot odds or the range of hands that I will make such a play with. Alternatively, they might corrrectly decipher the intetion of my reraise as an effort to knock them out, and stubbornly call simply because it is the opposite of the result I am hoping for, which they reason must therefore be a good result for them. Thirdly, I have found out that if you raise "too often", they will call you down on the flop and turn, if an ace or a lot of face cards don't come, with very weak hands because they know that once you have they betting lead you're going to keep betting no matter what hits, and they hope that you have just ace high which justifies them calling down with bottom pair or trying to pair one of their hole cards which that presume will put them ahead of you. If you limp, or call a raise preflop, and THEN bet or raise on the flop, they tend to give you more credit for hitting a hand.

3. I have received some harsh criticism for calling the player a "moron". Remember, those were the notes I had made about the player which were not originally meant for public consumption, not a politically correct, deeply analytical expose on his career to date in poker. I started writing nottes about him after the oddly played hand where he had KK and made, in my view, three mistakes during the hand while ending up winning it because his opponent had the one hand he could beat. Plus, as all of you notetakers know, taking notes can be a tedious and boring process, and using descriptive language makes it easier to write notes more concisely and quickly. I basically write down whatever the thought in my head was about the hand at the time.
4. As far as calling on the river, after thinking about it, I probabl would have called if it was heads up between me and the bettor, for two reasons. One is that he is much more likely to try a bluff when he up against only one player, and also somewhat more likely to try and checkraise me if he does have a king. Also, he saw a bet and a checkraise when it got to him on the turn, and called it, so not only must he have some kind of hand to explain calling, but he must realize that both me and the other player have good hands too. All of these factors significantly decrease his likelyhood of bluffing. After all the action he saw, it would be very unlikely for him think he can make both of us fold. The second reason is that thtere is some value in seeing exactly what his hand was, even if I am beat, so that I can analyze how he played the hand and improve my play against him in the future. However, based on the checkraise that the SB made on the turn, I am pretty certain that he has a good hand, ideally JT or AT, but he could have TT, AQ, or even AK although he checked on the river. Of the 1/2 player pool, they all seem to call with hands like that, so I decided it was very likely that he would call and allow me to see the bettor's hand.

Sorry but I have to go right now, hope the post was long enough [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].
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  #23  
Old 10-28-2005, 05:59 AM
detruncate detruncate is offline
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Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 680
Default Re: 1/2 PokerStars

[ QUOTE ]
How many callers would you need PF before you say this call is ok? I'm not saying this is a good coldcall against this particualr villian given his tendencies with limping pairs, but it's not AJo.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not all about how many callers there will be, but we do have to find a way to get paid off when we connect solidly since we're not a huge favourite against his range. We should expect to be dominated quite often even if we rule out big pairs -- Villain isn't presented as someone likely to raise a broad range of aces or paint. We're going to have trouble getting away from the hand when an Ace flops. Our implied odds are already reduced since we're working in units of 2 SBs, and there are only so many bets we can make HU or 3-way, especially when we're concerned about domination. 4+ way we also get the ability to pump some of our draws to help add value to our hand.

I'm not happy giving up initiative and inviting company unless I think it's going to end up at least 4-5 way. BB is going to be getting correct odds to call with a broad range of hands even without any more company, and we lose some equity 3-way. I don't love the tradeoff unless I'm going to be more likely to be aggressively paid off when I connect solidly. When BB calls 2 more, he's making a considerable mistake most of the time. Even more so for SB.

I think we're much better off 3-betting if we're going to play, and it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense against this Villain unless his range is actually broader than OP suggested.
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  #24  
Old 10-28-2005, 04:07 PM
bottomset bottomset is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 911
Default Re: 1/2 PokerStars

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, thanks everyone for the input, now I'm going to address some of the things that were said.

1. While you guys are free to discuss anything you want, and I don't discourage anyone from offering advice, the main point of this post was to examine the decision to fold on the river, not to debate how to play AJ suited in the cutoff behind an MP raiser. I know that most books will suggest folding, but after seeing him limp with kings earlier, and limp with nines, I presumed he was most likely to have high cards. 1/2 players are not the "vary-your-play" type, as a rule. Also, the fact that he had played somewhat unpredictably and aggressively with weak hands after the flop (KK on AJ6A board and AJ on Q92 board), it seemed likely that he raised with two unpaired high cards which might be as low as king ten or so. Plus, I consider myself a winning player with a significant edge in that game, so my ability to outplay other players the flop makes it profitable for me to play otherwise marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

um if he's raising stuff like KT, KJ, KQ, QJ, AT, A9 then you absolutely need to be 3betting him, coldcalling is bad, and the blinds will generally be making a huge mistake calling if they are doing so with a broad range

[ QUOTE ]
2. As far as 3-betting, I have played limit hold'em for several months (I'm at 1/2 now because of poor bankroll management in the past) and I am definitely aware of this "isolation play", but the 1/2 tables in general, including the one I was at, tend to call raises and reraises in the blinds with mediocre hands too often to make an isolation play effective. If I had to look into their minds and try to think like them, I would guess that they see a large pot developing because of the multiple raises, and call with any kind of drawing hand, not considering their pot odds or the range of hands that I will make such a play with. Alternatively, they might corrrectly decipher the intetion of my reraise as an effort to knock them out, and stubbornly call simply because it is the opposite of the result I am hoping for, which they reason must therefore be a good result for them. Thirdly, I have found out that if you raise "too often", they will call you down on the flop and turn, if an ace or a lot of face cards don't come, with very weak hands because they know that once you have they betting lead you're going to keep betting no matter what hits, and they hope that you have just ace high which justifies them calling down with bottom pair or trying to pair one of their hole cards which that presume will put them ahead of you. If you limp, or call a raise preflop, and THEN bet or raise on the flop, they tend to give you more credit for hitting a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

there is a small range of hands that correctly call 2 or 2.5SB out of the blinds when its gonna be 4handed max, if they are calling with a broad range your edge is bigger, and you should push it, however the range that correctly calls 1 or 1.5SB is larger so their mistake in general isn't as bad, when you coldcall

um maybe your problem is you put in too many bets postflop with Ahi in multiway pots where you don't have draws, and its likely to hit their hands


[ QUOTE ]

3. I have received some harsh criticism for calling the player a "moron". Remember, those were the notes I had made about the player which were not originally meant for public consumption, not a politically correct, deeply analytical expose on his career to date in poker. I started writing nottes about him after the oddly played hand where he had KK and made, in my view, three mistakes during the hand while ending up winning it because his opponent had the one hand he could beat. Plus, as all of you notetakers know, taking notes can be a tedious and boring process, and using descriptive language makes it easier to write notes more concisely and quickly. I basically write down whatever the thought in my head was about the hand at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

call him whatever you want, but don't let it cloud your judgement

[ QUOTE ]
4. As far as calling on the river, after thinking about it, I probabl would have called if it was heads up between me and the bettor, for two reasons. One is that he is much more likely to try a bluff when he up against only one player, and also somewhat more likely to try and checkraise me if he does have a king. Also, he saw a bet and a checkraise when it got to him on the turn, and called it, so not only must he have some kind of hand to explain calling, but he must realize that both me and the other player have good hands too. All of these factors significantly decrease his likelyhood of bluffing. After all the action he saw, it would be very unlikely for him think he can make both of us fold. The second reason is that thtere is some value in seeing exactly what his hand was, even if I am beat, so that I can analyze how he played the hand and improve my play against him in the future. However, based on the checkraise that the SB made on the turn, I am pretty certain that he has a good hand, ideally JT or AT, but he could have TT, AQ, or even AK although he checked on the river. Of the 1/2 player pool, they all seem to call with hands like that, so I decided it was very likely that he would call and allow me to see the bettor's hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
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  #25  
Old 10-29-2005, 01:39 AM
HighStakesPro HighStakesPro is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6
Default Re: 1/2 PokerStars

[ QUOTE ]
um if he's raising stuff like KT, KJ, KQ, QJ, AT, A9 then you absolutely need to be 3betting him, coldcalling is bad, and the blinds will generally be making a huge mistake calling if they are doing so with a broad range

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's ONLY raising with those hands, then I should three-bet, but obviously he will also raise with AK and AQ, and it is also possible that he will raise missle paiars like JJ, TT, 99, maybe QQ and/or 88. Therefore, while my hand is ahead of some of his holdings, it is trailing against others. I admit that it is close, and I would give more consideration to reraising with AQ, and definitely reraise with any medium or high pair (more on that later), I feel like my edge against his range of hands is small, if anything, which makes me lean twoards cold-calling, simply on the basis of the value of my hand.

[ QUOTE ]
there is a small range of hands that correctly call 2 or 2.5SB out of the blinds when its gonna be 4handed max, if they are calling with a broad range your edge is bigger, and you should push it, however the range that correctly calls 1 or 1.5SB is larger so their mistake in general isn't as bad, when you coldcall

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I did a few odds calculations on CardPlayer's calculator, and it turns out that if both me and the original raiser both have high cards and we share one of them (for instance, AK vs AJs, as was probably the case for me), then either blind is getting the correct price to call with two no-gap or one-gap live connecting cards, suited or not. For instance, if A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] vs A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], the 87 is 31 percent to win, which is good enough to call in either blind (note: since it is virtually certain that the original raiser will call my reraise, especially after his play with KK earlier, then the SB is getting 7.5 to 2.5 or 3 to 1 on the call, and if he folds, the BB is getting 7.5 to 2. or 3.75 to 1.) High live cards, like QT or Q9, are also around 30 percent to win. There are all offsuit hands, so they'll have even more playable hands if their cards are suited. In addition to these hands, it is obviously correct for them to call with any pair, since both me and the original raiser have high cards. Even a hand like JTo with only one live card is 24 percent against AK and AJs, which is enough for the big blind and his 3.75 to 1 pod odds to call, and its about an even money call for the small blind who is getting 3 to 1. So based on the actual hands of me and the original raiser, it is generally correct for them to call with a pretty wide range of hands, or at least about an even money call. If I have a medium or high pair, THAT is when it more often becomes incorrect for them to call a reraise before the flop, and it is therefore better to make a preflop reraise in my position with a hand like 99 than with AJs. If the original raiser has a pair, then my raise with AJs is not as effective, since I have a drawing hand and need to improve anyway, plus if I hit my hand, I am less vulnerable to being outdrawn by a player in the blinds who decided to call preflop than if I had a pocket pair, and often I make more money from him when he calls me down with 2nd pair against my top pair. Finally, it is easier to get away from a pocket pair after the flop even if there is a lot of money in the pot because it is more obvious when you are beaten and you only have two outs to improve. With overcards, you often have to take cards off if the pot becomes too large, costing you more money. This makes calling a raise with overcards more attractive because it will be easier to get away from if you completely miss the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
um maybe your problem is you put in too many bets postflop with Ahi in multiway pots where you don't have draws, and its likely to hit their hands

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not really sure what you are referring to, you didn't mention anything specific about the play on the flop and the turn (perhaps you could elaborate), and I can't imagine a reason for playing those two streets any differently than I did. It seems highly probable that I had the best hand on the flop and the turn based on how the betting went. I don't see how the fact that I "don't have draws" is relevant if I have the best hand and they are the ones drawing. As far as them being "likely to hit their hands", the small blind, who after the hand said he had AT, was drawing to two outs, and the big blind, if he did in fact have AK (or AQ), was drawing to seven outs. This makes me an 11 to 3 or 3.66 to 1 favorite going to the river.

[ QUOTE ]
call him whatever you want, but don't let it cloud your judgement

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.
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