Daily Hand Post: two similar QQ hands

jason_t · #1 06-10-2005, 07:06 PM

Let's make the first of these a rather simple marginal but common situation. Here are two similar hands from a late night fairly tight Party 2/4 table without reads. What is your plan in these hands? If they are different, say why. Don't be scared of being wrong! Get your thoughts out there.

--- Hand one ---

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: I am MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, I raise, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP1 calls, I....

--- Hand two ---

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: I am MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, I raise, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP1 calls, I....

SmileyEH · #2 06-10-2005, 07:08 PM

hand 1 and 2 I'll call, and raise a non spade turn. Fold hand 2 on a spade turn, and call with hand 1.

-SmileyEH

brettbrettr · #3 06-10-2005, 07:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
call with hand 1

[/ QUOTE ]

If there's a bet and a call on a spade turn in hand 2 what makes you think your Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is any good?

I'm not sure I call either of these hands. But, in hand 1 you're dealing with the BB and MP1, both of whom had one bet in this pot before you raised, so they're range of hands is wider. Still, with a bet *and* a call, I think this is a fold.

Hand 2: Same spot.

Am I weak for wanting to fold both of these flops?

A_C_Slater · #4 06-10-2005, 07:13 PM

Hand 1: I call

Hand 2: I fold

If there is no overcaller in hand 2 then I call.

hobbsmann · #5 06-10-2005, 07:16 PM

I'm thinking raise hand one considering we have a fairly high backdoor draw combined with the chance to BB could be leading with a flush a draw. I'm also inclined to raise hand two as well (you can't put MP1 on A after just calling the bet from BB, probably a flush draw) betting the turn/checking the river if non spades fall. At the same time I would be prepared to fold to a 3-bet from BB in hand 2, but call a 3-bet in hand 1 hoping to pick up the spade draw on the turn.

sweetjazz · #6 06-10-2005, 07:34 PM

I'm inclined to fold both hands. There's a good chance you are behind with 2 outs (maybe 2.5 in the first hand; a little less than 2 in the second because the Qs makes a possible flush), and even when you're ahead, you'll still lose a fair amount of the time here.

If I had reads on the opponents as being particularly bad or donkish, I might very well play on. BB could be betting J8 and MP1 could be calling with K2 or a spade draw or complete junk, but I don't think this is the case often enough for us to continue, absent a read to the contrary.

brettbrettr · #7 06-10-2005, 07:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking raise hand one considering we have a fairly high backdoor draw

[/ QUOTE ]

If the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] was out, I think this would be fine. Though a call might be better.

But the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] isn't out and there's a bet and a call on an ace-high 2 spade flop. Is it me or does this seems like a textbook case of reverse impied odds?

sweetjazz · #8 06-10-2005, 07:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking raise hand one considering we have a fairly high backdoor draw

[/ QUOTE ]

If the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] was out, I think this would be fine. Though a call might be better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the main value in raising is to see the showdown for 2 BB instead of 2.5. The passivity of the opposition would be the main factor in deciding between raising and calling here.

drudman · #9 06-10-2005, 07:54 PM

I think I'd raise hand 1, and bet again on a non-spade turn. On a spade turn, there's a decent chance you could take a free card if some donk has made their flush and is trying to checkraise it.

I think I'd raise hand 2 as well and again bet a non-spade turn.

PokerSparky · #10 06-10-2005, 07:56 PM

Against unknowns, I want to get to showdown here cheap. So I'm raising the flops on both, betting the turn and checking the river UI.

Folding to any further aggression.