Daily Hand Post: two similar QQ hands

[SmileyEH]

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I think I'd raise hand 1, and bet again on a non-spade turn. On a spade turn, there's a decent chance you could take a free card if some donk has made their flush and is trying to checkraise it.

I think I'd raise hand 2 as well and again bet a non-spade turn.

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I don't like raising, because the BB could easily 3bet a pair plus a flush draw and force you to make an incorrect fold.

-SmileyEH

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You should probably look at the flop again.

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oh snap. I'll shut up now.

-SmileyEH

[Goat_boy]

i've been comparing this to hand quiz in SSHE where overcard to queens is king and 5players to flop (10.5sb).

Miller says raise with the BDFD(which is 2nd nut), but doesn't really take a stance without ("your decision would be closer")
In this case there's only one player behind (as opposed to 2 in SSHE eg.) and no caller so maybe calling is viable.

Returning to the question of whether to continue (without reads), i'm thinking the ace,the slightly smaller pot and the fact that there's a caller would swing it to a fold.
I'm not too sure how the tightness of the table would affect things though.

[Emmitt2222]

OK, Im going to say what I said to jason before because I still like my lines and I haven't been convinced yet otherwise. I think hand two is an easy fold for several reasons. A person just bet into the pfr and then a person inbtween called so, although that doesn't mean someone has an ace for sure, there is a decent chance. You also have reverse implied odds because if are ahead now, there is a decent chance that you will be outdrawn. Hand 1 I like a call because you have about 3.5 outs and are getting 10:1 immediate odds, if you hit a Q on the turn you can collect extra bets if the same villian bets. I think they are both quite marginal though. Tough decisions.

[w_alloy]

Noone has mentioned the difference between having the spade and not having it is 2 outs, not 1. In the first hand you have about 3 (should be 3.5 but we take off .5 because somene miht have the A or K of spades) outs. In the second you quite possibly have 1, and flush drawing opponenets have 1 more. Thus, it is very possible you have less than 1/3 the outs of the first hand in the second hand.

I would raise or call hand 1, If they are tightish or solid standard tags I raise, If they are standard 2/4 tags or looser I call. I bet the trun if I dont see any other agression and fold to any raises/bets after the flop.

I fold hand 2.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

if you guys folded this flop, i doubt it'd make a big impact on your winrate one way or the other.

anyways, both hands i'm likely to peel one card off and re-evaluate, though i'd fold 2 more than 1.

[Nick C]

MP1's call in both hands is troubling. It's really unlikely he has bottom pair unless he's the loose player at this fairly tight table. And he's probably not calling with broadway undercards to the ace, especially with the preflop raiser still to act. So what does that leave? A flush draw, middle pair, an ace with possible kicker problems (with the preflop raiser still to act), a pocket pair he's not ready to give up on yet (I'm not sure how likely this really is, unless he's loose postflop), and a monster that he doesn't want to raise with yet.

As for BB, I guess he could be betting middle pair or a pocket pair, hoping it's beating Hero's KQ or something (or that he can drive Hero out), but an ace is a very real possibility. So is a flush draw, but he might have checked that. (Then again, I guess he also might have checkraised an ace.)

I would probably call in Hand 1 and might do so in Hand 2, in both cases mainly hoping either that I will improve or that BB will check a turn blank after getting called twice. But an ace is by far my least favorite overcard when I have a big pair. When someone suddenly comes to life in multiway pots once an ace flops and all I have is a big underpair to that ace, I don't seem to win very often without improving.

Sometimes this is because I fold before I get a chance to, I suppose, but after making the fold, if the hand goes to showdown, I seem to see an ace in one or more of my opponents' hands a lot of the time.

So, like Private Joker and Chesspain, I wouldn't feel too committed to either of these hands once there was a bet and call on this ace-high flop. I do like my situation in Hand 1 a little more, though, as I don't have to worry about making a set when someone else makes a flush, and my backdoor flush also does have some value.

[Derek in NYC]

This situation is covered in HPFAP on pp 125-127. Obviously the first situation is better since you have a spade redraw.

The BBs bet into the PFR, in a MW pot, suggests strength. The BB could have any number of hands including middle/bottom pair, two pair, an ace, a spade draw, etc. You are probably behind. (That said, in a 6-max game, you could easily be against a hand like 99 or TT, but not in a full ring, I think.)

I'd raise the flop in hand #1 (not so much to clean overcards since only the K overcard exists), but rather to define your hand and get a free turn. If he bets into you on the turn, fold. If he checks to you on the turn and you check behind, and he bets the river, I reluctantly call.

In hand #2, I fold.

[xniNja]

Hand 1 is a marginal call/raise at best.

I probably would fold both hands, if I were on my A game.

[lufbradolly]

Think i'd fold both these hands, might be weak but against a few people someone who bets will have an ace a lot of the time.

[jason_t]

Let's follow up on hand one as an interesting decision arises on the river too.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: I am MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">I raise</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, I call, SB folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">I bet</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, I....