something in this hand felt strange

1800GAMBLER · #1 09-21-2005, 05:34 PM

SB and MP1 are both very very loose, villian is 25/13/1.2

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 raises, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP3 raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: (13 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

1800GAMBLER · #2 09-21-2005, 05:40 PM

Hm, a thought that just came to me now is that i should checkcall the turn since i will never be missing against hands i'm beating and i can't go 2 bets this way, which could be happening very often.

Guido · #3 09-21-2005, 05:43 PM

I like it. Maybe I would 3-bet the turn sometimes but probably not against a guy with these stats. I wouldn't bet the river either after not 3-betting the turn.

Thanks,

Guido

lil feller · #4 09-21-2005, 08:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hm, a thought that just came to me now is that i should checkcall the turn since i will never be missing against hands i'm beating and i can't go 2 bets this way, which could be happening very often.

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Are you so convinced after the preflop/flop action that you are behind here. I know an AF of 1.2 isn't hyper active or anything, but it isn't exactly "raise only with the nuts" passive either. I'm not sure I see why you wouldn't want two bets to go in on the turn. I think 3 is too many, but whats wrong with 2? Aren't you worried that KJ or some similiar gutshot hand might check behind, or are those hands not possible vs this player.

lf

Saborion · #5 09-21-2005, 08:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hm, a thought that just came to me now is that i should checkcall the turn since i will never be missing against hands i'm beating and i can't go 2 bets this way, which could be happening very often.

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What would you do on a rag river if it went check, check, bet, call, call on the turn? If it was down to you and the PFR?

1800GAMBLER · #6 09-21-2005, 08:45 PM

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Are you so convinced after the preflop/flop action that you are behind here.

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I'm not really worried about being behind when i lead the turn i think i am winning > 70% but that leaves 30% of legit hands that are going to raise me here. That still makes a betcall +EV but if i check and all the hands i am beating bet anyway, then that's even better.

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I know an AF of 1.2 isn't hyper active or anything, but it isn't exactly "raise only with the nuts" passive either. I'm not sure I see why you wouldn't want two bets to go in on the turn.

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I don't think i want to go two bets. A standard hand range of his would be AK AQ AJ AT vs AA JJ TT KQ, so there are a lot of legit hands he can raise me with while i think AK AQ aren't raising on this board vs bet-3bet not fearing the other players in, my hand in his eyes should be at least two pair.

Ok, so if that is all true, checkcalling is greatly better, the only cost of this line is if he would raise KK KJ on this flop. I think that's unlikely given the caller between us.

1800GAMBLER · #7 09-21-2005, 08:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hm, a thought that just came to me now is that i should checkcall the turn since i will never be missing against hands i'm beating and i can't go 2 bets this way, which could be happening very often.

[/ QUOTE ]
What would you do on a rag river if it went check, check, bet, call, call on the turn? If it was down to you and the PFR?

[/ QUOTE ]

This situation again is the same as the turn, at first i thought i would have to lead because of the hands he would check behind but that's not right since he will def. value bet the hands that are behind vs me, so i'm not costing myself anything. So i might as well check instead of betting with the real risk of facing a raise that i can't easily fold to.

The line looks crazy for someone watching, bet-3bet then checkcall and checkcall when no worrying cards come, but i like it since he will be value betting for me.

After checking even checkraising and fold to the 3 bet (that would be an easy fold) becomes a real option. If it was 3 way overcalling thanks to the guy behind is extremely more appealing. HU, it's just combinations AK AQ AT vs KQ AA JJ TT, which should mean i c/r.

Wow, there was a lot more than meets the eye to this hand.

edit: against some players, the good ones, i would have to worry about them checking behind with AK AQ on the turn.

Saborion · #8 09-21-2005, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hm, a thought that just came to me now is that i should checkcall the turn since i will never be missing against hands i'm beating and i can't go 2 bets this way, which could be happening very often.

[/ QUOTE ]
What would you do on a rag river if it went check, check, bet, call, call on the turn? If it was down to you and the PFR?

[/ QUOTE ]

This situation again is the same as the turn, at first i thought i would have to lead because of the hands he would check behind but that's not right since he will def. value bet the hands that are behind vs me, so i'm not costing myself anything. So i might as well check instead of betting with the real risk of facing a raise that i can't easily fold to.

The line looks crazy for someone watching, bet-3bet then checkcall and checkcall when no worrying cards come, but i like it since he will be value betting for me.

After checking even checkraising and fold to the 3 bet (that would be an easy fold) becomes a real option. If it was 3 way overcalling thanks to the guy behind is extremely more appealing. HU, it's just combinations AK AQ AT vs KQ AA JJ TT, which should mean i c/r.

Wow, there was a lot more than meets the eye to this hand.

edit: against some players, the good ones, i would have to worry about them checking behind with AK AQ on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
"Impossible" for him to hold KK/QQ on the turn after the flop action? If not, then checking the turn becomes less attractive since with that low AF he will often? check behind, even more so on the river the times he do bet the turn with KK/QQ. All that doesn't matter though if he's very unlikely to have either of those holdings when raising the flop. Just asking to see if it's a possibility.

Saborion · #9 09-21-2005, 09:07 PM

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I know an AF of 1.2 isn't hyper active or anything, but it isn't exactly "raise only with the nuts" passive either. I'm not sure I see why you wouldn't want two bets to go in on the turn.

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I don't think i want to go two bets. A standard hand range of his would be AK AQ AJ AT vs AA JJ TT KQ, so there are a lot of legit hands he can raise me with while i think AK AQ aren't raising on this board vs bet-3bet not fearing the other players in, my hand in his eyes should be at least two pair.

Ok, so if that is all true, checkcalling is greatly better, the only cost of this line is if he would raise KK KJ on this flop. I think that's unlikely given the caller between us.

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But the caller is acting after both of you on the flop.

1800GAMBLER · #10 09-21-2005, 09:13 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
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I know an AF of 1.2 isn't hyper active or anything, but it isn't exactly "raise only with the nuts" passive either. I'm not sure I see why you wouldn't want two bets to go in on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think i want to go two bets. A standard hand range of his would be AK AQ AJ AT vs AA JJ TT KQ, so there are a lot of legit hands he can raise me with while i think AK AQ aren't raising on this board vs bet-3bet not fearing the other players in, my hand in his eyes should be at least two pair.

Ok, so if that is all true, checkcalling is greatly better, the only cost of this line is if he would raise KK KJ on this flop. I think that's unlikely given the caller between us.

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But the caller is acting after both of you on the flop.

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MP1 calling the flop reduces the chances of a raise from KJ KK. If it was HU i could imagine it happening.