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  #1  
Old 09-08-2005, 10:35 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get

I have NotReady in other threads stating that he doesn't expect to find perfection of doctrine in any denomination, although he can't demonstrate logical contradictions in my views. And I have OOO and udon'tknowmickey stating that it is reasonable to believe that God doesn't care if His divine messages are transmitted down to our time free of error. Do you all not realize the implications of this? You are playing right into the hands of those who deny the truth of Christianity by claiming that Jesus didn't really exist or that even if he did then those who wrote about him made up a lot of it, and that even after that the doctrines based upon what he said are not correct interpretations of scripture even given that it is true.

When you profess faith in any belief system, whether religious, mathematical or scientific, you start out with certain premises or axioms which by definition cannot be proved to certainty, but the evidence for same is enough for you, espcially if you believe you possess personal evidence that tips the scales, although which would usually not be credible to others. How improbable those axioms might be determines how seriously non-believers are willing to take that system. In other words, you have to avoid extreme far-fetchedness. After that you derive derivative theorems or doctrines which should not conflict logically either among themselves or with the axioms. Regarding matters of religion, this is a matter of spiritual as well as intellectual integrity.

Anyone willing to accept such contradictions can claim no better thinking than someone who believes in astrology. Logic is a part of the sphere of knowledge with strong mathematical foundations. To refuse to acknowledge or to accept logical contradictions is no different than maintaining that the earth is flat or that 3^2 really does not equal 9. I give tons more respect to the intellectually honest views of atheists and agnostics like andy or David, than I do to any Christian who either can't formulate logically correct views, denies logical implications, or worse yet can't even see them.

All of this is not proof in and of itself that my particular religious beliefs, i.e. catholocism, are true. Many of you may not possess the theological knowledge to rebut various points I make to as great a degree as a theology professor in a protestant seminary would be able to. A good analogy for this is to look at these theological arguements, what we call apologetics in my church, as the various lines in a book of chess openings. Just because you know only 1/2 the line doesn't make me correct since others with greater knowledge could take it further even if they couldn't actually refute my views. But if you can't even make logical arguments with fellow Christians, then you have no hope of ever persuading thinking non-believers.
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Old 09-08-2005, 10:45 AM
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Default Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get

[ QUOTE ]
And I have OOO and udon'tknowmickey stating that it is reasonable to believe that God doesn't care if His divine messages are transmitted down to our time free of error.

[/ QUOTE ]
I never said any such thing.

God can care and not intervene. Example: Thousands of children died of starvation in Africa today. Hundreds of people died in car accidents. People got raped, murdered, assaulted, ripped off. Does the fact that God didn't intervene mean he didn't care?

Also, even if he chose to intervene, he may have other ways of sending his message without providing the correct scriptural interpretation to exactly ONE particular religion.

Do you see how silly your logic is?
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  #3  
Old 09-08-2005, 11:04 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get

I said I was done with you and am only replying for the benefit of others. God cares about everything, the only difference is how much He is willing to intervene, especially given that He allows men free will. But if you maintain that He doesn't intervene to at least see that His message is availabe somewhere uncorrupted, then you cannot logically debate about anything to do with that message. And regarding the implications for debating with non-believers, you have now adopted premises that can't be proved to a certainty, and then also allowed it to come to pass that those premises can't even be guaranteed to be stated correctly. So you are presenting unbelievers with a compound probabiility of an X% probability that a premise Y which iteself already possesses less than 100% probability of being true is correct. The fact that you don't see this is why I said I was through debating with you.

It's not enough that you try to convince non-believers to accept that Christianity is a good bet without perfect information, but you have to go and try to get them to accept a parlay instead. Good Luck.
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Old 09-08-2005, 11:14 AM
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Default Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get

[ QUOTE ]
But if you maintain that He doesn't intervene to at least see that His message is availabe somewhere uncorrupted, then you cannot logically debate about anything to do with that message.

[/ QUOTE ]
So are you saying the bible is corrupted? Because if it is truly his word, it satisfies your criteria for being "available somewhere uncorrupted".

How people interpret his word, or turn it down completely, is then their business, wouldn't you think?

Also, I am not adopting any premises, simply pointing out the illogic in yours. But I won't reply to any more of your religion posts. Good luck with your campaign.
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Old 09-08-2005, 12:53 PM
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Default Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get

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I give tons more respect to the intellectually honest views of atheists and agnostics like andy or David, than I do to any Christian who either can't formulate logically correct views, denies logical implications, or worse yet can't even see them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.

Sticking one's head in the sand or spewing dogma one doesn't understand or care to look at deeply is hardly the basis for a personal belief system.
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Old 09-08-2005, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get

True faith needs no proof.
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  #7  
Old 09-08-2005, 02:35 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get

[ QUOTE ]
True faith needs no proof.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try to sell that to someone who doesn't already believe.

Plus you should want to know that you are placing your faith in 100% of the truth and not a lesser number, when by switching denominations or changing your views slightly it might be possible to achieve that.
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  #8  
Old 09-08-2005, 03:08 PM
udontknowmickey udontknowmickey is offline
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Default Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get

Please give a reason why Jesus spoke in parables and the fact that he said in Mark 4:

[ QUOTE ]
10And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12so that

"they may indeed see but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand,
lest they should turn and be forgiven."


[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus himself said that he spoke in parables so that some may be confused and not understand.

I am not denying that God has given us a true transmission, but just that there are times when God muddies the waters. This plays directly into divine sovereignty. God had decreed some for destruction, and this is one of the ways he brings them to reject Scripture. If they truly understood, they wouldn't reject Scripture.

You still haven't given an explanation of Romans 9 which is consistant with your view of God's foreknowledge of future rejection which is denied in Romans 9: 11)

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- (emphasis added)

These actually aren't contradictions per se, since you claim to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, but the problem is that the RCC hasn't infallibly defined predestination as you do, nor has it infallibly defined the extent or scope of tradition. You're standing on air now. It's very easy to be logically consistant when there is nothing to be logically consistant to.

You have also yet to demonstrate a logical contradiction in my words. You've just been offended that I would claim that God muddies the waters, but this is entirely consistant with my system of beliefs.

I don't know why I'm still posting. My points have been made and unanswered. The RCC has not infallibly interpreted any of the verses, so now it's just your opinion against mine. I think this is my last post unless you properly interpret those verses consistant with your views.

Sorry David, I know you have been thoughally entertained by my antics these past few days, but there is only so much time I am willing to devote to debate. NotReady seems to be still going strong though.

*washes hands* *wipes dust*

Matt. 7:6
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  #9  
Old 09-08-2005, 03:18 PM
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Default Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get

[ QUOTE ]
True faith needs no proof.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nor does true ignorance, coincidentally.
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  #10  
Old 09-08-2005, 03:46 PM
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Default Re: What You Protestants Don\'t Seem to Get

Teach the ignorant so that they too my know.
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