So Why is Stealing Wrong Again?

David Sklansky · #1 09-07-2005, 12:35 AM

Everybody seems to agree that looting a store of a loaf od bread to allow your children to survive, is totally OK. And burglarizing a middle class couple of their one valuable possesion, an engagement ring, so you can make a necklace for your Persian cat, isn't.

But where do you draw the line? Suppose through absolutely no fault of your own, you have to work two jobs to feed your sick wife and kid. Your neighbor inherited a billion dollars recently, hasn't moved yet, takes drugs from morning till night, and keeps 50 hundred dollar bills on his coffeetable in his unlocked home. He staggers out one day and you can walk in and grab that money to more nutritiously feed your family and get better medicine. What argument, other than it is against the law, makes it wrong for you to steal his money but not wrong for the desperate looters to loot?

AlphaWice · #2 09-07-2005, 12:38 AM

I myself don't believe in right or wrong. I think choices can be made without having to appeal to right or wrong. Most people do not believe this because they do not understand the idea of social norms.

tek · #3 09-07-2005, 12:40 AM

If it's a life or death situation and you have exhausted legal ways to obtain relief (or don't have the opportunity due to time, logistics, etc), then taking the minimum necessary to sustain life or remedy a medical problem or whatever would be acceptable behavior. In the Old Testament it is stated that stealing and self-defense killing in a life-or-death situation is ok.

David Sklansky · #4 09-07-2005, 12:51 AM

But why not otherwise?

Alex/Mugaaz · #5 09-07-2005, 12:57 AM

I don't think there are many good moral reasons when you consider it as a crime only between the 2 people in a vacuum. In those circumstances I think stealing might be morally wrong because it has very much in common as violence except spread over time, and is a direct attack on most people pursuit of happiness.

The real reasons it's morally wrong is because it's an attack on society. Society needs ownership in order to function. When theft is rampant, what is the point of industry.

This seems similar to the argument as why to punish someone who is guilty of a crime if they have already reformed and made up for their crimes in some way. There are other valid reasons for punishment, almost all of them have to deal with how not punishing this person affects society im similar circumstances.

If this question is changed to a world where these 3 are the only ones alive, I wonder if it would become morally wrong not to steal. I think the answer of that would be based on the chances of your wife dying vs the chance of your theft resulting in deadly violence between you and the druggy.

Alex/Mugaaz · #6 09-07-2005, 01:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If it's a life or death situation and you have exhausted legal ways to obtain relief (or don't have the opportunity due to time, logistics, etc), then taking the minimum necessary to sustain life or remedy a medical problem or whatever would be acceptable behavior. In the Old Testament it is stated that stealing and self-defense killing in a life-or-death situation is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't recall those passages.

#7 09-07-2005, 01:14 AM

As I said in the other post, about a broke family man and a millionaire, maintaining security of property really does serve the greater good.

In addition, stealing affects both the thief and victim. The victim loses feelings of security, and is forced to waste time and resources protecting his property. The thief suffers from the curse of anyone who gains without legitimate effort - a weakening of his moral fiber, a lessening of positive motivation, and a loss of normality. His successes in life will be cheapened by the fact he couldn't make it without stealing.

Neither the first or second points above apply to something like New Orleans. And without a natural disaster, I don't believe that looting a store is OK to feed your starving children.

Aytumious · #8 09-07-2005, 01:14 AM

I'd say the main deterrent to me taking the money is my conscience. I simply would not be able to live with myself if I took the money. I'm the guy who hunts down the stranger who lost his wallet or who gives the money back if a cashier gives me the wrong amount.

I think social ostracism and the human conscience are the main deterrents in general for criminality, followed by the threat of incarceration if caught.

I really don't believe in morality per se, and I make a concerted effort to not frame my world in terms of "right" or "wrong" because doing so simplifies your view to the point of making you unable to see the true motivation behind most actions. If the situation is indeed a matter of life or death, looting from those who will not realistically be harmed in any tangible way is justified.

Alex/Mugaaz · #9 09-07-2005, 01:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say the main deterrent to me taking the money is my conscience. I simply would not be able to live with myself if I took the money. I'm the guy who hunts down the stranger who lost his wallet or who gives the money back if a cashier gives me the wrong amount.

I think social ostracism and the human conscience are the main deterrents in general for criminality, followed by the threat of incarceration if caught.

I really don't believe in morality per se, and I make a concerted effort to not frame my world in terms of "right" or "wrong" because doing so simplifies your view to the point of making you unable to see the true motivation behind most actions. If the situation is indeed a matter of life or death, looting from those who will not realistically be harmed in any tangible way is justified.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't think you can say that you won't do something because you'll feel guilty, then say you can't think of any reasons why.

garyjacosta · #10 09-07-2005, 01:49 AM

David,

With your argument, you are assuming that people are entitled to basic nourishment.

In socialist/communist countries this is true, and stealing does occur by the government in order to ensure this.

To some extent, we have the same structure in our capitalist society... but to a greater extent the help provided to the poor in this country is provided through the FREE WILL of the citizens.

It all depends on your belief system.

I personally don't believe that anyone is entitled to anything. I do, however, have compassion for human suffering. Therefore, I do make donations to charity organizations that help people get back on their feet in times of crisis.

I don't support the welfare programs in this and many countries. I believe that stealing is WRONG

P.S. This belief is not because of religion. I have proudly been a nonbeliever for 10 years now.