Ugly Postflop Situation w/ JJ ($109)

[durron597]

What could the BB possibly be overcalling with on such a drawless board? Gutshot + pp? 98? I dunno, I think I would have to fold at a 109......

[tigerite]

There are plenty donks at the 109s. Just last night I had TT in SB, a raise from the button (which means absolutely anything), I re-raise, flop 965, I bet out, he raises, I call with the intention of pushing any turn (as the pot is now 1k, and I have 400 left behind).. turn is an A (worst and best card at the same time, I may get him to fold JJ and QQ, but if he had A9 he's calling a push on the flop anyway), so I push, he tanks for 5 seconds and calls with, erm, 67s

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
There are plenty donks at the 109s. Just last night I had TT in SB, a raise from the button (which means absolutely anything), I re-raise, flop 965, I bet out, he raises, I call with the intention of pushing any turn (as the pot is now 1k, and I have 400 left behind).. turn is an A (worst and best card at the same time, I may get him to fold JJ and QQ, but if he had A9 he's calling a push on the flop anyway), so I push, he tanks for 5 seconds and calls with, erm, 67s

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I guarantee you, if you ever see me overcall like that, I have 55 at worst.

[tigerite]

Sure, but you're a good player, I just mean there are plenty of idiots out there too, both at $55 and $109 (and I suspect $215 too).. just less of them than at the $11s or what not.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
What could the BB possibly be overcalling with on such a drawless board? Gutshot + pp? 98? I dunno, I think I would have to fold at a 109......

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys give way too much credit to players at the 109's. I've been saying this for the past 6 months. Doesn't mean I'm not worried, I just feel there is this sentiment that everyone at the 109's is good. They're almost all quite bad. By the way, I think a bad player has TP alot of the time here or one of those combos you alluded to. And yes, we lose to a set or straight a bunch.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Push, I'm afraid, even though you probably lost to a set, otherwise you'd not have posted it..

[/ QUOTE ]

stop saying that. particularly to players as good and intelligent as MSU. it makes you sound like a moron.

c

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure, but you're a good player, I just mean there are plenty of idiots out there too, both at $55 and $109 (and I suspect $215 too).. just less of them than at the $11s or what not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but there's 3 people in this hand, not 2.

I fold this and at a 109, I don't think it's close. It is so not close that I only have to think about 5 more seconds to fold aces. If you put the coldcaller on a 9 or something, you will wind up busting out a lot more than you should*.

*also, in the rare case he only has a draw, he still has 33% equity, and the minraiser sometimes has you beat, too...in reality you are somewhat ahead/way behind and your hand should be turbomucked.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
What could the BB possibly be overcalling with on such a drawless board? Gutshot + pp? 98? I dunno, I think I would have to fold at a 109......

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

I fold this and at a 109, I don't think it's close. It is so not close that I only have to think about 5 more seconds to fold aces. If you put the coldcaller on a 9 or something, you will wind up busting out a lot more than you should*.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't fold Aces here, because I've seen QQ/KK "slowplayed" so often. I include them in the BB's range.

JJ is a fold here, and I do think it's a tough spot, but it's gotta go in the muck. You beat exactly one hand BB could have (TT) and even then I think 65, 87, 55, 66, 99 are all much more common.

Edit: Let's put it another way. You raised in EP. Then you bet the flop, which represents an overpair. You could be c-betting with unpaired overs. Then, MP minraises you, which represents "I can beat your overpair and I don't mind giving a free card." Then the BB coldcalls, which means "I think I can beat both of your overpairs and I want to keep you in". The stacks are not really deep enough for the BB to make this with air and expect to take it away on a later street... I have to give an unknown BB who hasn't gotten out of line credit for the ability to fold A9 here in a $109.

[microbet]

Usually I would assume one unknown player is bad, but not two. I would fold unless they were proven donks.