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  #11  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:04 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: Wow, this might be the best question ever on this forum;-) ...

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This seems like kinda a non-question to me. How would you feel about the Pope if he killed a hobo? There's numerous hypothetical things the Pope could do that'd make people feel such and such, he hasn't done those things though.

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It's a good question because in order to answer it, you must consider:

A) the chance such "real miracles" are possible

B) the chance that a very strange conjunction of physical conditions might have taken place, resulting in an extreme freak occurrence (such as an incident of unexplained "spontaneous combustion", if such incidents exist, or something very bizarre but still within the realm of physics)

C) the chance that some very rare sort of psychokinetic powers do exist (not a "miracle"; but rather, something along the lines of enhanced ESP or telekinesis)

D) the chance that the Pope is a major charlatan capable of performing a truly outstanding magic trick

E) the chance that it was, in fact, a trick of the Devil, and the Pope is possessed

F) the chance that some other possible explanation might exist which is not outlined above

Next, assign rough probabilities to each of the above scenarios (I'll bet they don't sum to 100% ) Next, assign proportional probabilities to each of those scenarios, i.e., since the raw probabilities assigned probably won't sum to 100%, do it instead like: "the chance of possibility A is ten times that of possibility E, and the chance of possibility E is twice that of possibility D; or whatever ratios you see fit; do this for all the choices, and you will be well on your way to answering David's question.
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  #12  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:06 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others

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Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

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Why do you suppose it's so important to God that man deny the very common sense He instilled in him in the first place?

Would you give your child a gift and then punish her because she used your gift?

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It is you who are making assumptions, namely that God having given man reason expects him not to make use of it. There are certain protestant posters here who make that implicit assumption, but not us catholics.

The point of Jesus' teaching is that one should accept the testimony of credible witnesses as well as the teachings of God and His prophets. And it is perfectly acceptable and necessary to apply one's reason to those teachings to derive their full logical meaning, although again many protestants seem to have a problem with that.
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  #13  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:11 PM
imported_luckyme imported_luckyme is offline
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Default Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others

Essentially this is a "Gap" belief in a nutshell. The pope's or my inability to explain something does not mean it doesn't have a natural one .. classic gap.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" Arthur C. Clarke

Every civilization has some technology and/or natural events that are beyond their current understanding. Because of that fact, there is no 'magic' that would make me say' "ok, god did it". That would be the same as claiming omniscience for myself.

This especially includes my personal experinces - visions - emotions - events I believed happend but show no evidence.

luckyme,
my mind would change, if it thought I was wrong
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  #14  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:15 PM
txag007 txag007 is offline
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Default Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others

[ QUOTE ]
The point of Jesus' teaching is that one should accept the testimony of credible witnesses as well as the teachings of God and His prophets. And it is perfectly acceptable and necessary to apply one's reason to those teachings to derive their full logical meaning, although again many protestants seem to have a problem with that.

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In Acts you will find that everytime Paul arrived in a new town, he immediately went to the synagogue and reasoned with them through the scriptures concerning the truth of Jesus Christ. I find it interesting that the Bible uses that word specifically: reasoned. There shouldn't be any doubt that God expects us to use our minds to arrive at a decision concerning the truth of His word.
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  #15  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:22 PM
imported_luckyme imported_luckyme is offline
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Default Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others

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The point of Jesus' teaching is that ...

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Such statements are credible only if the person never says " We cannot claim to know gods motives/reasons ... ".

Then again, if they do say that, how can they claim to know X is for certain. Seems a basic problem with theism, and, yes, I realize theists simply claim both positions and move on.

luckyme,
My mind would change if it thinks I'm wrong.
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  #16  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:29 PM
hmkpoker hmkpoker is offline
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Default Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others

I don't know, I guess it depends on the situation.

I would probably feel it was all fake, though. Probably the same way I feel about David Blane
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  #17  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:35 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others

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[ QUOTE ]
The point of Jesus' teaching is that ...

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Such statements are credible only if the person never says " We cannot claim to know gods motives/reasons ... ".


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I agree if you mean that we cannot by reason alone know God's motivations. But we can claim to know such if He has told us in His divine revelation.
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  #18  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:56 PM
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Default Re: Wow, this might be the best question ever on this forum;-) ...

The question is essentially just 'do you trust the Pope?'. If you do, you can assume divine intervention, if you don't you arrive at trickery. The point I was making is that you could say, 'what would you think if the Pope turned into yoghurt carton?'. It has little meaning because you can take any hypothetical thing that hasn't happened and draw conclusions based on that thing that are the antithesis of what you already believe. Anyone to whom that doesn't apply has no flexibility or credibility. I'd believe that I could fly if I suddenly found myself flying, and I'd be right to do so. That fact does not in any way challenge or discredit my current belief that I can't fly.

As an aside, I was amused by DS not including 'absolutely positive' as an option [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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  #19  
Old 12-16-2005, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others

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Would you give your child a gift and then punish her because she used your gift?

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The analogy isn't quite right. It's more like giving a child a swiss army knife which they then use to kill people.

Plus, God didn't give us the gift of reason. Humans got reason by disobeying God and eating from the forbidden tree.
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  #20  
Old 12-16-2005, 02:20 PM
hmkpoker hmkpoker is offline
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Default Re: Good Question For Catholics and Others

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Plus, God didn't give us the gift of reason. Humans got reason by disobeying God and eating from the forbidden tree.

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If we didn't have a reasoning ability, then how is it our fault that we ate the fruit after being given the temptation by the serpent? What good is free will without reason?
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