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  #91  
Old 12-12-2005, 03:35 AM
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
Can you actually? Think about it for a minute. Can you do anything other than what you actually do? What gives you that ability?

We are no different from highly complicated computers / animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it for a minute? Is that an argument? Am I supposed to 'think about' whether I'm really choosing to move my arm in a certain direction, and from that realize that I'm not? Why? I don't get it.

How about this--you tell me before my arm moves which way it will move--up or down. Now, since I have no say in the matter, you should miss on your prediction about half the time. But I think you will find, amazingly, that you are 100% accurate in your predictions. How could that be if I have no choice in which way my arm moves?
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  #92  
Old 12-12-2005, 09:42 AM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

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The argument is not that it overpowers your mind, but simply knows what your mind will do given all possible situations, and will calculate accordingly.

The best counter-argument to this, by far, IMHO, is the very simple Quantam Physics = you cannot predict the future to 100% degree of accuracy, no matter how much information you have available to you.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you are right than as quantam physics is compatible with determinism it follows that detreminism does not mean you can predict the future.

chez
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  #93  
Old 12-12-2005, 09:48 AM
bocablkr bocablkr is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

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I am a fatalist; I do not believe in free will. This is because I feel that my actions are controlled by my brain and my brain in turn is controlled by the laws of physics. There is no room in here for independent action.

I also do not believe in the natural value of morality. I do not believe that any actions are in and of themselves inherently right or wrong. While I do in almost all cases act in a moral way (I haven't murdered anyone, for example) I see no real reason to do this.

Because of these beliefs I am ethically off the hock if I kill / rape / steal etc. Not only is it NOT MY CHOICE (because I do not have free will) it's not "wrong" because I don't believe wrong exists.

This seems to me an unsatisfactory solution. What do I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever you do please don't have children. We don't need more people with your strange views.
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  #94  
Old 12-12-2005, 10:34 AM
txag007 txag007 is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

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This seems to me an unsatisfactory solution. What do I do?

[/ QUOTE ]
Look to the Bible, and turn to God.
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  #95  
Old 12-12-2005, 01:29 PM
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

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[ QUOTE ]
The argument is not that it overpowers your mind, but simply knows what your mind will do given all possible situations, and will calculate accordingly.


[/ QUOTE ]

If the demon knows what my mind will do given this specific situation why can't it make an accurate prediction?

[ QUOTE ]
The best counter-argument to this, by far, IMHO, is the very simple Quantam Physics = you cannot predict the future to 100% degree of accuracy, no matter how much information you have available to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are trying to show that it is impossible to predict the future even if you have complete information. I am trying to show free will exist.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]


Whatever the demon predicts, you WILL do.
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  #96  
Old 12-12-2005, 01:31 PM
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you actually? Think about it for a minute. Can you do anything other than what you actually do? What gives you that ability?

We are no different from highly complicated computers / animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it for a minute? Is that an argument? Am I supposed to 'think about' whether I'm really choosing to move my arm in a certain direction, and from that realize that I'm not? Why? I don't get it.

How about this--you tell me before my arm moves which way it will move--up or down. Now, since I have no say in the matter, you should miss on your prediction about half the time. But I think you will find, amazingly, that you are 100% accurate in your predictions. How could that be if I have no choice in which way my arm moves?

[/ QUOTE ]


You must be purposely trying to not understand what I am saying. I have no doubt the ILLUSION of free will is present. I certainly APPEAR to make choices every day. You APPEAR to choose which way to move your arm. My problem is that you do not actually CHOOSE in the strictest sense (that is, being able to move it one way or the other).
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  #97  
Old 12-12-2005, 01:36 PM
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

You are living up to your name by calling black white and white black.

"Are your actions really controlled by your brain?"
Yes.

", how exactly does phsyics "control" my brain?"

If you want to split hairs about the words, fine, but I'm not playing.
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  #98  
Old 12-12-2005, 04:07 PM
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you actually? Think about it for a minute. Can you do anything other than what you actually do? What gives you that ability?

We are no different from highly complicated computers / animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it for a minute? Is that an argument? Am I supposed to 'think about' whether I'm really choosing to move my arm in a certain direction, and from that realize that I'm not? Why? I don't get it.

How about this--you tell me before my arm moves which way it will move--up or down. Now, since I have no say in the matter, you should miss on your prediction about half the time. But I think you will find, amazingly, that you are 100% accurate in your predictions. How could that be if I have no choice in which way my arm moves?

[/ QUOTE ]


You must be purposely trying to not understand what I am saying. I have no doubt the ILLUSION of free will is present. I certainly APPEAR to make choices every day. You APPEAR to choose which way to move your arm. My problem is that you do not actually CHOOSE in the strictest sense (that is, being able to move it one way or the other).

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand perfectly what you're saying--I know what it means to believe that we do not have free will. I just haven't seen you give any reason for believing it, and when you said 'think about it' it seems to me that thinking about whether or not I can freely choose to move my arm in a certain direction makes it seem very much like I do have free will--as in, "look, I'll move it this way, now this way," etc. So, I don't understand what 'think about it' was supposed to show me. Can you give me a reason for believing that we do not have free will then?
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  #99  
Old 12-12-2005, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

I haven't read this long thread yet, but let me first agree with you. I don't believe in free will either. I believe in free "agency" -- meaning that I am responsible for my own actions. However, my will is not free. It is a product of a lot of things -- genetics, biology, environment. In the end, I cannot control my brain, because "I" am an emergent property of my brain. Freewill is an illusion -- but a very handy one. Now, on to how this matters:

[ QUOTE ]
Because of these beliefs I am ethically off the hock if I kill / rape / steal etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are only off the hook, in that there is no "you" apart from your functioning brain. Un/fortunately, society will do things to either change your brain, or keep it from hurting their brains. So, you should use your free agency to try to adapt your brain in such a way so that soceity doesn't think they need to adapt your brain for you (or lock it up, or destroy it).
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  #100  
Old 12-12-2005, 06:07 PM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 779
Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever the demon predicts, you WILL do.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I don't do what the demon predicts, does that mean I have free will?

Stu
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