6-max question in a small pot

#1 11-08-2005, 09:41 PM

Short-handed 6-max game. No reads on villians except they play way to many hands (vpips of 40-50 on everyone at the table). Postflop aggression is nothing out of hte ordinary, but not extremely passive either. I don't have their exact vpip/pfr/af stats offhand, sorry!

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds.

Villians are capable of folding the flop when they whiff, I bet in an attempt to pick up the pot with the intent of folding to a raise and c/f on the turn UI. Assuming both miss the flop 2/3 of the time (and fold when they miss) I see pickin gup this pot 4/9 ~44% of the time? Since I am getting 3:1 on my bluff, this is an okay move right? Maybe my initial "2/3" estimate was too high though ...

Turn: (2.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

On the turn - okay I picked up a flush draw, villian might be just calling with an overcard(s) and fold now that he's getting 3.5:1 odds instead of 4:1 with only 1 card to come? (yea right). Maybe this is spewing, villian might check behind with his overcards. I just felt like checking would induce overcards to bet and I wouldn't have odds to call the draw. The increased expectation from posibility of villian folding seemed to make up for the slight lack of odds to draw my flush, so I fired one more. Thinking over this again, I am betting 1 to win 2.5, so this doesn't seem like too profitable of a play ...

River: (4.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Hero ... ?

Final Pot: 4.50 BB

Should I swing once more at this pot? Villian might be hard-pressed to just call with overcards since I bet every street and if he was on a medium flush draw unpaired he would likely fold. I doubt a 10 is folding here ...

Redd · #2 11-08-2005, 09:45 PM

I don't like the flop bet. The risk of at least one of them staying in is too great (especially since the board isn't completely ragged with a flush draw, many possible overs, etc.), and the payoff for folding them both is too small. Especially since we're OOP and haven't even seen button's action yet.

Given the flop bet, I like the turn semibluff. This was like the perfect card for you.

On the river I'm inclined to just check-fold it, since Villain's likely looseness (given the previous reads and limit) is actually going to help him here.

ArturiusX · #3 11-08-2005, 10:12 PM

Check-fold the flop.

#4 11-08-2005, 10:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop bet. The risk of at least one of them staying in is too great (especially since the board isn't completely ragged with a flush draw, many possible overs, etc.), and the payoff for folding them both is too small. Especially since we're OOP and haven't even seen button's action yet.

Given the flop bet, I like the turn semibluff. This was like the perfect card for you.

On the river I'm inclined to just check-fold it, since Villain's likely looseness (given the previous reads and limit) is actually going to help him here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to play the "what-if" game, but if button was the initial raiser and flop was now 5.5sb, what would be your flop line? I think betting out the flop is just asking for a raise from any hand - made hand, overpair, overcards.

Assuming that the button is smart enough to get off his hands once in a while, what do you think about the line:

check to button, button bets, sb folds, raise & lead turn? Is this too risky with such a marginal hand?

6-max is new to me and I am finding myself in a world of unfamiliar situations that I am trying to figure out. Thanks!

El Ishmael · #5 11-08-2005, 10:20 PM

Change the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to a 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and I think we can start talking about a bet here, although IMO it's not an absolutely dreadful bet.

The problem is it's very easy for overs to peel here and you need some added equity to make up for the times your bet doesn't work. Of course I have not done the math on this tonight, but I believe this to be so.

#6 11-08-2005, 10:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Change the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to a 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and I think we can start talking about a bet here, although IMO it's not an absolutely dreadful bet.

The problem is it's very easy for overs to peel here and you need some added equity to make up for the times your bet doesn't work. Of course I have not done the math on this tonight, but I believe this to be so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah thanks. I've hit this temporary lag-phase since i've running super hot the last few weeks ... now every pot seems to look winable.

Redd · #7 11-08-2005, 11:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop bet. The risk of at least one of them staying in is too great (especially since the board isn't completely ragged with a flush draw, many possible overs, etc.), and the payoff for folding them both is too small. Especially since we're OOP and haven't even seen button's action yet.

Given the flop bet, I like the turn semibluff. This was like the perfect card for you.

On the river I'm inclined to just check-fold it, since Villain's likely looseness (given the previous reads and limit) is actually going to help him here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to play the "what-if" game, but if button was the initial raiser and flop was now 5.5sb, what would be your flop line? I think betting out the flop is just asking for a raise from any hand - made hand, overpair, overcards.

Assuming that the button is smart enough to get off his hands once in a while, what do you think about the line:

check to button, button bets, sb folds, raise & lead turn? Is this too risky with such a marginal hand?

6-max is new to me and I am finding myself in a world of unfamiliar situations that I am trying to figure out. Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

Our problem here is that it'll cost us 4SBs before he'll have a chance to fold, which will be almost 1/2 of the pot. So we'd need button to fold around 1/2 of the time for +EV, which IMO doesn't usually happen even against a reasonably tight player. He's going to have a pair that will play back and punish you, or some overs that might be tempted to (correctly, since he has the best hand) peel on the turn.

I'd be much happier trying something like this with at least a bit of equity. Like another poster mentioned, if we could semibluff a strong draw here, it may be worthwhile against a tight opponent. Or if we had a halfway decent pair, say a middling PP, I'd try something like what you've described.