Was Villain Right?

QTip · #1 10-04-2005, 10:42 AM

Villain seems pretty decent. something like 22/14/2.8 over 100 hands

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Following Chat:

Villain: Stupid

Villain: How do you even see the river there...

Hero: (in smarta$$ mode) I pressed call on the turn.

Evan · #2 10-04-2005, 10:44 AM

Wow. I'd fold preflop. I'd just call the flop. I'd fold the turn.

I think you played this one really bad.

QTip · #3 10-04-2005, 11:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. I'd fold preflop. I'd just call the flop. I'd fold the turn.

I think you played this one really bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Evan. 4 handed I thought the PF raise might be decent...guess not.

On the flop, I was hoping I could get a free turn from overs....not so.

On the turn, I thought I could easily have 7 outs there.

Thoughts on my thoughts.

krishanleong · #4 10-04-2005, 11:10 AM

4-handed the pfr is fine.

Krishan - 87

RunDownHouse · #5 10-04-2005, 11:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, I was hoping I could get a free turn from overs....not so.

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Something you want to consider is the amount of times your gutshot is your only good card. Often your A is tainted pretty badly, so you're raising the flop hoping to get one of something like 6-7 turn cards. Not worth it when you consider the chances of being 3bet, as you were.

QTip · #6 10-04-2005, 11:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, I was hoping I could get a free turn from overs....not so.

[/ QUOTE ]
Something you want to consider is the amount of times your gutshot is your only good card. Often your A is tainted pretty badly, so you're raising the flop hoping to get one of something like 6-7 turn cards. Not worth it when you consider the chances of being 3bet, as you were.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. That wasn't well thought out at the time.

Had I played this properly on the flop, I could have folded the turn.

sammy_g · #7 10-04-2005, 12:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Something you want to consider is the amount of times your gutshot is your only good card. Often your A is tainted pretty badly, so you're raising the flop hoping to get one of something like 6-7 turn cards. Not worth it when you consider the chances of being 3bet, as you were.

[/ QUOTE ]
Given the flop action, this guy has an overpair or set 90% of the time. None of these hands picks up a club draw on the turn.

The ace is not tainted badly. 2/3rds of the time we hit an ace it is good. (See my math in other parts of the thread.)

The flop raise is debatable, but I like it in a pot this size if villain is capable of laying down big unimproved aces on later streets. Even if you intend to take a free card I still like the flop raise with between 6-7 outs, which is what we have on average on the flop against villain's range. Villain will have AK and AQ type hands often here (before we see the flop 3 bet), and you might even be ahead of KQ. This pot is too big not to fight for.

Evan · #8 10-04-2005, 11:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow. I'd fold preflop. I'd just call the flop. I'd fold the turn.

I think you played this one really bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Evan. 4 handed I thought the PF raise might be decent...guess not.

On the flop, I was hoping I could get a free turn from overs....not so.

On the turn, I thought I could easily have 7 outs there.

Thoughts on my thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd raise from the button, so I supose it can't be that bad, but I still don't like it.

I don't think your draw is strong enough or the pot is big enough to care about free cards.

There's no way you can give yourself 7 outs. I think its more in the 5-5.5 range. Even with very generous implied odds assumptions this is neutral at best.

Jeffage · #9 10-04-2005, 11:46 AM

THANK YOU. Evan's post is clearly correct as is his next one. You are far from "guaranteed" to get two bets if you hit the ace also.

Jeff

krishanleong · #10 10-04-2005, 11:53 AM

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THANK YOU. Evan's post is clearly correct as is his next one. You are far from "guaranteed" to get two bets if you hit the ace also.

Jeff

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We don't need 2 bets. The implied odds are strickly from the straight.

Krishan