2 questions

[stillbr]

3-betting preflop will give you a better chance to win the hand & given the range of the opener and the dead money in the pot I think this is a better Idea than coldcalling.

Will the SB fold any queen when you 3-bet? At first I thought calling would be better with the superfish behind you as you want lots of multiway action with your big draw, but 3-betting the flop may help you win if you spike a 9 or T. I dunno..its probably close on which one is better on the flop. However I think preflop it is much better to 3bet.

[stillbr]

[ QUOTE ]
3-betting preflop will give you a better chance to win the hand & given the range of the opener and the dead money in the pot I think this is a better Idea than coldcalling.

Will the SB fold any queen when you 3-bet? At first I thought calling would be better with the superfish behind you as you want lots of multiway action with your big draw, but 3-betting the flop may help you win if you spike a 9 or T. I dunno..its probably close on which one is better on the flop. However I think preflop it is much better to 3bet.

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After reading some of the responses I agree 3betting is better on the flop aswell. Your supposed to knockout 3rd and 4th best hands in a big pot right? The chance to knockout a gutshot or other hand is important here. This is probably why I'm on a downswing. I dont think good enough.

I would just like to make the point that anybody who thinks the only play is to three bet the flop have all made the assumption that they must hit either the flush or straight to win. Once you three bet the turn you can only make it two more BBs the rest of the way if a bad queen or PP wants to call you down. A smooth call on the flop and a raise on the turn gives you a much better shot and taking down the pot without improving. The preflop raiser could very easily have missed with AK and be raising for a free card himself, which of course you do not let him have and if the blind is a good player as Bob suggests then he will let a bad to mediocre queen go on the turn if it is two bets back to him.

I think Muse is all over this one to gain the most value and provide you with more than one way to win the pot.

wally

P.S. I know this game at Canterbury and the turn raise has worked for me on countless occasions to win pots from people who are making plays themselves, whether or not I have anything.

[goofball]

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The problem with everyone elses anaylisis thus far is that no one really is making warrants to their claims. Like goofball saying he 'doesn't like cold calling much at all' if your going to propose a different way of playing the hand providing some reasonable idea of why you make that play would help please.... (Free speech is overrated) [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]... -ANdrew

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Coldcalling isn't good because we don't have an equity edge, we're behind Q2o here, and we're going to have to just fold a lot of flops. If we coldcall it will be difficult to play the hand profitably, folding is better than coldcalling and against a competent player I would fold. Against the wrong kind of fish I would fold as well.

3betting against a specific player is good. It gives us position AND momentum, likely drives everyone else out of the pot, and frequently puts our opponent in a tough spot, out of position with a marginal hand and no momentum. 3betting allows us to win unimproved a lot, and that makes the difference for thsi hand.

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG I guess this is the reason that I continue to play poker and play sucessfully. Jesus christ guys just getting back from work today and reading all of these replys posts hurts my head. I think there are a few important things to remember about my anaylisis of the situation. First I don't disagree with anyone completely that said that three betting is a good play here, in fact in many situations and against many opponents the three bet is going to be the better play as pointed out by many people in this post. (Whether they pointed out any reasoning what soever or not) The thing that upsets me and makes me giggle is the fact taht very few of you see any value to the alternate play i have suggested. Like I mentioned in one of my preveious posts, the difference for me as a poker player is who I am up agaisnt. As I have said if your only anaylisis of your opponents is "SUper fish" then it doesn't matter if you three bet, smooth call, or throw the hand away it is my belief you will lose in the long run. The difference for me is if i put the preflop raiser on AK and I know his tendance is to muck on the turn into a raise if he doesn't improve, I'll take control of the hand on the turn. I will also wait till the turn if my table image represents a solid player that will even slow down the worst of donkeys (which sometimes it will and sometimes it won't) I play in games in Seattle ranging from 8-16 to 30-60 and most even ultra aggro players preflop and on the flop slow down to check call on the turn and river, unless they have a hand or are value betting. I love the cold call play if I am up against donkeys that love to value bet the turn with ace high, middle pair, pocket tens with this board, even a bigger flush draw etc. I agree that if you have decided that your opponents are bad enough that you will have to show the winner then sure three bet the hell out of it. It just amazes me how no one even really gives any credibility to any play except three betting. I think the ability of any good poker player is the ability to be able to 'change gears' be able to alter his or her play based on the ability, tendancy, and knowing his or her opponents.

Now for the line by line....

Newhizzle, yes i know what a mathematical favorite we are to hit this hand and win the hand (under the assumption that our draws are good.) I am just proposing a different way of playing the hand where dependign on who I am up against I'll be able to make nut diamonds fold the river if they miss, ace king, ace queen, pocket tens, maybe jacks, etc a field of hands. Where I play if a hand like jacks commits to a big pot on the flop he/she will check call out, yet if i make two bets on the turn increasingly likely I can force that hand to fold as well as a rag hand like Q 2 spades or whatever....

Shant, Yea i can think of much worse scenarios but it doesn't matter. IT is a real scenario taht if you don't realize is out there you will pay off every time. Of course if the black six hits and you get check raised then you should three bet the flop every time. I can't think of a game taht soft where your going to get check raised very often in that situation.... but if your opponents are truely that bad and reckless then yes forget anything that resembles fancey and just play them straight up like it seems i would have to do against most of you.

Dazarath I agree that what you said makes sence and is sensible. I think here is where it comes down to really making sure you know your opponents and how they will interact with you and how you bet. If the preflop raises is ultra aggro and will value bet the turn 2/3's of the time with most of the hands he'll raise with and say it gets capped on the flop then I don't know if i like your three bet on the flop. I like if i hit my hand that has a lot of draws retaining the abilty to pop the turn. I love people who value bet the flop and the turn even, if they do this they will continue to lose money to me over time because of this play. As far as worrying about the higher flush in your King Queen of spade situation of course you have to worry about it. You can still assume your hand is good but i don't think it'd be wise to raise all the way out in that situation if there isn't a board pair and is no four flush? I think that's foolish unless you know your opponents. I think the things that we need to remember in poker is I believe all anaylisis is subjective to the players we are up against and how they play.

Entity,
A, your right no one said you have to bet the turn, but then again I'm assuming that if you hit any of your outs espically a diamond here you will be betting the turn not check calling the rest of the hand. If you automatically assume your diamonds are not good you should throw away on the flop obviously. So it is easily assumed that with the turn being a diamond and they check to you that you will bet and open yourself to check raise from a hand with bigger diamonds.
b) I agree we are the favorite subject to a cruel act of the card gods, but it doesnt' matter two things that need to be addressed is alternate ways of maximizing a hand, and then making sure our play best suits the way to maximize value based opun our opposition.

Lastly Victor,
The fact that you think it's stupid means it worked, I vary my play enough that i will only maybe one out of 5 times bet a dry turn with a big draw (12 outs +) I do this because usually i get the table image of being a rock and can use this to value bet, steal and use some misdirection to outwit my opponents and pick up extra bets. The fact that you have no idea why i'm doing this is reason enough. I mean against a player like you that is so one dimentional and can not understand advanced play and against a lot of negative players, making it two bets back to them can even sometimes make them fold aces. Depending on who your playing against. I love the part why raise with little chance of picking up the pot. This is just a dumb statement, I will not make this play if I belive there is little way I will pick up the pot, the only way there is little way I will pick up the pot is if I have misread my opponents or the strength of their hand. If that is true then yes i am the pidgeon in this hand. WHich i am assuming is not going to be the case. And to answer your last question like anything it just depends on teh situation and how the other person plays. But no obviously I am not one of those players that just blatently rasies anytime i pick up any draw on the turn. I am a very calculated player. K my head hurts now good bye for now. I hope at least a few of you terrible players have learned a thing or two and if not come to Seattle. There is a 100-200 seat for you waiting right next to me. I'll even let you chose left or right side of me. -ANdrew

Ahh at last beautiful silence [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. -Andrew

[Entity]

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I hope at least a few of you terrible players have learned a thing or two and if not come to Seattle. There is a 100-200 seat for you waiting right next to me.

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Where do you play? I'm in Greenlake and unless you're playing at some private ex-microsoftie games, I'm not sure where you'd be inviting me to play $100/200.

Rob

[golferbrent]

Is Canterbury a bet and 3 raises? If that is the case here I would 3 bet the flop. The preflop play is fine... possibly a 3 bet on some occasions... sometimes a fold. You probably are not losing a whole lot here either way.

[golferbrent]

I have 2 explicit reasons to 3 bet the flop. Number one is that with the equity we have in the pot... ie. approx. 45% or so if our diamonds are good, it makes sense to get the money in now. When the turn comes and we don't make our hand we lose a great deal of equity in the pot.

The number 2 reason to 3 bet the flop is that we may fold out the BB and the button, which leaves us against a player who may not have a hand at all. Which means we may add outs to our hand.

I think these two reasons combined are reason enough to 3 bet the flop. An additional reason to 3 bet is that if we get the pot heads up... with the original raiser we could win the hand unimproved. The pot has 6 BB in it already and at this point I want to do everything possible to give myself a chance to win the pot.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
do you hate preflop? what's your flop play?

Canterbury 15/30 8 handed
There are 2 BB's posted in this hand cuz someone left. UTG folds, UTG+1 opens. This means very little. He is a fish (he's a dealer at canterbury) and his range is HUGE here. Folds to me on the CO with T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I call. Super fishy button comes along. One blind folds, one calls. The one who calls plays pretty well and is very honest.

Flop 4 ways (9SB): 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Blind bets, UTG+1 raises, I..........

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Preflop is OK IMO, if you have a strong read that the Button is calling too. But, even then, it is probably marginal.

On the flop, I would just call for two reasons mentionednin OP's reads.

1. "The one who calls [Blind/flop-bettor] plays pretty well and is very honest." You are likely not improving your chances to win by spiking a T or 9, since I doubt the Blind is folding his Q.

2."Super fishy button". Since the button is "super fishy", he will likely cold-call in this pot that is getting big and exciting (just the kind super fishy players like). So, by calling, you get 8 SBs in this round at the cost of 2 to you (+2.4sb in EV, assuming 55% equity). But, by 3-betting you are likely getting 9SBs in this round at the cost of 3 to you (+1.95sb in EV). Now, if Button will call 3-cold, then it is a different story.

Also, by jamming now, you hurt your implied odds if you check when you miss the turn, which will likey be the right play since there will probably be 3 players in a big pot (i.e. you will have no bluffing equity).