Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?

i have to agree that if they don't even know how to play it doesn't hurt to rip on them because they think you're kidding. they love it. some of my friends will learn from this, so i keep my mouth shut. but 2 of them think they make good plays calling raises with 62 because they've cracked big hands with it. they think you're talk is anger and they give you more action from it.

[poker-penguin]

Stop trying to rationalise the fact you are an [censored] table coach.

Shut your damn mouth at the table and smile when they drag a pot with 83o.

There are a few sad assholes out there looking to upset people. Most fish are just looking to have fun and very few people find getting berated by a stranger fun (you obviously do or you wouldn't have posted this shining example of stupidity).

[bobman0330]

You missed half of what I said. Even if the fish remains, he and everyone else at the table will play differently because of the atmosphere you have created. Instead of calling bullshit all the time, having fun when they hit, and enjoying themselves, they're now trying to beat you. They'll try to bluff, they'll try to pull funky check-raises, they'll 3-bet you out of pique, and that's all bad for you. They're not going to learn about the odds or correct technical play, but making a fish angry is only going to make him play better.

[benkahuna]

In my experience, it sometimes hurts and never helps to berate fish or their play. Every book by every top theorist says not to do it.

You can't know what kind of fish you're dealing with until you make your unnecessary and rude commentary. And once you've made the comment, it's too late to take it back.

I've actually gotten into arguments with people about this many times. I picked up a line from someone else that was very useful. I say something like "Please don't discourage bad play." And then, "Do you hate money?"

The do you hate money line is pure gold and gets people thinking about what they're doing.

I recommend it to all "Fish Preservation Society" members.

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
Whoa, I just thought of something that almost made my head explode.

If berating a fish and scaring him away is a fish move in itself, then wouldn't it also be a fish move to berate a fish FOR berating another fish since doing so scares said fish from his own games and likely into your games?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a word, no. It's a meta-fish move to say something to a fish to improve their play. While a bad play, it affects you directly and it's something you want to stop. Lou Krieger had the best quote basically saying you make money from the idiocy of your opponents, not your wonderful play. And when you cut off one good source of income at any table, you're making a huge mistake. One good leaky player can turn a slightly unprofitable table into a very profitable table. And words can easily plug the leak.

Additionally, while your post was sort of cute in its attempt at a hall of mirrors type thing, a fish that's fish move is to berate fish might otherwise have a good game so you don't necessarily want that critic fish in your game. You can predict that such a player is more likely to tilt because they're hyperemotional (and may be tilting and responding to a bad beat that just occurred). However, I still think you lose something if the critic affects the play of a loose, leaky fish. Additionally, a player with some skill on tilt is a much more difficult opponent with which to deal than a calling station type fish. It's certainly been the case in my experience.

[mudbuddha]

this is a funny subject, because at my game there is 1 guy who comes in and is rich but if you prod him and taunt him he will actually play worse and be more of a fish hahaha as bad as this sounds. The first time i palyed with him, i felt bad that all the regulars were teasing him.. but apparently he plays there more than i do so.. there is some merit to taunting SOME fish.. hes actually a nice guy, handed out a few pay cheques.. i just hope hes rich and not some guy wiht a huge gambling problem

I haven't read the whole thread, but I don't think anyone has yet pointed out that criticizing a fish's play may be +EV or -EV, but regardless, it's utterly classless. I see this a lot, and find most attacks juvenile, nasty, and pretty cowardly, really, because generally people don't behave so poorly in a cardroom. No doubt some people are capable of politely advising someone not to play 8-3o, but most can't help but throw a "s***head" in there as well. The philosophical discussion of fish-flaming is nice and all, but I fear that it will give license to a legion of hotheads with a superiority complex.

[mudbuddha]

haha sometimes its more fish-taming than fish flaming

I'm with the majority here - "Tapping the glass" is a terrible idea. Even if it doesn't change the behavior of the fish in question, it is still likely to discourage other players from gambling it up when you're in the pot. Or even if you're at the table.

I've seen more than enough nice loose tables go bone dry after some jerkwad lays into one of the fish following some bad beat. Don't do it!

[mudbuddha]

oh i know most ppl agree, but some ppl lke to tap the glass on the forums too haha. someones gotta b devils advocate