Stud tourneys ... injectionpoints ??

I like most come from a Hold'em background .. doing ok, but like most diets one gets fed up at some point. My hold'em play is 100% autopilot, so I've taken up stud .. which is kinda fun, since you are more active mentally during a hand, keeping track of hands and so fort.

I just played my first ever Stud tourney on party last night, finished just outside the money on 34 of 218.

Problem is, I had no idea what I was doing ... Is there a formalized theory of injectionpoints in stud (stacksize vs. blind) ... I ran stortstacked most of the tourney .. and finally just hit the pedal with spilt aces .. unfortunally villian hit his third 9 on 4th and I was dead.


Stealing blinds is one option ... but when do you start that and is there an M where you go for it with any hand if you are the first to enter after bring in

Second my problem was, that a very large stack was calling everybody down at least til 5th street .. (Macho and just bang at him til 7th anyway ?? )

Is there a time, when you just do like I did and say .. oh well, I'm taking my spilt aces to the river no matter what, if I'm to have a chance at winning something in this tourney


And so on ..


This thread might belong in the multitable tourney forum (feel free to move it moderator), but since everything there is Nolimit Texas Hold'em practically, I'm afraid it would go unnoticed)

Nolimit Hold'em tourneys can be played fairly simply ... if you don't catch anything just wait an hour til blinds are high and start a betting/all-in frenzy til you stacksize has improved or you have crashed and burned ... wait til blinds start hurting again and repeat.

Limit Stud ... well ... hmmm .. ??? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[lane mcbride]

inflection points, not injection. also, m is more suitable to no limit poker than limit. limit poker is a whole different phenomenon altogether. you are not going to win the pot uncontested as often, without going all in, you won't be able to force your opponents off as many hands... so the same concepts don't apply as much.

you don't want to raise with mediocre holdings as often, especially at a loose table. There is definitely a time when you need to get more aggressive, and desperate. when your stack size gets to a certain point you have to pick your spots and try and push small edges or throw the last of your chips in there and hope things go well... but typically, I would like to do this against as few opponents as possible and with a pair or at very worst a couple of high cards (unless your stack gets very low). the most important thing in the late stages is recognizing the table you are at and stealing antes when you can or getting as many value bets in there as possible with your good holdings. at a loose table, you should bet the [censored] out of your aces unless your opponent gives you reason not too. a loose table you should play your solid hands hard and fast and not try to steal antes as often (since people won't fold). at a tight table, the opposite is true (at least for stealing antes). if people are letting you steal the antes go for it at an amount proportional to how passive the table is, don't get carried away and raise with a 2 doorcard everytime... but if you are the high door card, or even second highest door card at a passive table and you think your raise will steal the antes, by all means steal them. also... be aware of the ante stealers if there are any. if you notice one guy raising all the time to steal the antes, this may be a good chance to shove in your chips with a slightly good hand. reraise him, isolate him, and get the chips in the pot if you think your hand is best.

Inflection it is ... somehow i thought it said injection first time I read Harrington and haven't noticed I was wrong since... (Mostly as a consequence of English not being my native language and me not having any idea what inflection means).

But yes .. Magriels M and Short stacked Terror obviously belongs in no limit poker. I have learned to play poker at Ladbrokes.com, which is a site where nobody almost plays limit poker. Hold'em is played no limit and everything else is played pot limit, so my limit experience is close to nothing even though I mostly play cash games and only occasionally tourneys. (enough said .. I've moved far from the subject)


Catching good card of course plays a role in tourneys, but there a lot more to tournaments than this.

So what we have now are these tools:

1.Ante Stealing (Although again if anyone has an option as to Stack/ante ratio to when you attack hard I would still like to hear it)

2.Attacking Antestealers and large stacked calling stations with solid but not necessarily premium holding


And then there is the desperation play of pushing overcards if very short stacked.


Have I missed anything .. ?

[PoorLawyer]

typically I think you should start out playing very tight in the early rounds/first couple levels. There will be a lot of loose play and you are going to need the goods to take down a hand.
there is no specific point that I could point too, but when you feel the tables tightening up, you need to switch gears and become aggressive. WHen you are a big stack you want to complete a lot to force players with mediocre holdings to decide if they want to butt heads and maybe get crippled. When you are short stacked you need to bide your time a little more and steal when you can to keep yourself afloat. There will definitely be a point where you only have a few bets left where you just need to go for it and raise and pray.

Oh look, someone has been on the Harrington. I think you mean inflection points mate. I would generally just try and play draws or monsters early, as most pots are multiway, and when you notice the table go tight, start playing hands more aggressively, until you manage to get aces and lose to a fish, much like you did. That is textbook, its how i bust out of every stud tournament. Your mistake is getting committed to a hand that is a substantial favourite to beat your opponent. You havent got a chance, especially on Party Poker. Do you know why its called Party Poker? Cos you have to be a drunk inchoerent fool to enjoy it and make money there.

LOL

Yep .. I should not have put all my money on Aces at the end ..


Right thing to do must be to find a good rainbow hand with cards far from each other in value ... then each card can make five straights and you are drawing to three flushes !!

[jon_1van]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=2858553

[BeerMoney]

Hey man, welcome to the forum, just a heads up, be prepared to be teased unmercifully about "injection" points. Its right alongside lstreams "Horse Raise" concept. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, I don't know much about stud tourneys, sorry I can't help you there..

Beer$$

[AceofSpades]

I placed in one a while back, I think the key to it is playing lots of draws early, and by draws I mean three flushes, small pair for cheap, two flushes with an ace or pair etc, looking for a monster. Because once you hit the monster, two pair tends to cap on all the streets with 3 more coming along for the the ride. Once blinds become significant to your stack size, switch to playing quality hands, and good draws. Also not making that extra bet in marginal situations might help you when your stack isn't . For example making your opponent pay the max for his four flush draw, when you have two pair and a reasonable stack isn't really good because you will have better places to put the extra chips. As the bubbles approaches and ppl tighten up, you need to start stealing antes, raise with highest card on board is usually good. Final table is pretty opponent/table dependent.

[AceofSpades]

>I just played my first ever Stud tourney on party last >night, finished just outside the money on 34 of 218.

That's actually really good although it sucks you missed the money.

>Problem is, I had no idea what I was doing ... Is there a >formalized theory of injectionpoints in stud (stacksize >vs. blind)

Because it is limit, inflection points don't really work that well. Mostly because maximum chip gain is limited per hand so doubling up doesn't have as great an effect. Sometimes you need to get lucky...

>Stealing blinds is one option ... but when do you start >that

Anytime the table tightens up enough that people are folding to a completion. You also need a high up card.

>and is there an M where you go for it with any hand if you >are the first to enter after bring in

Because its limit, the "first in" equity isn't really as important as the hand you have or your upcard if the players are tight.

>Second my problem was, that a very large stack was calling >everybody down at least til 5th street .. (Macho and just >bang at him til 7th anyway ?? )

>Is there a time, when you just do like I did and say .. oh >well, I'm taking my spilt aces to the river no matter >what, if I'm to have a chance at winning something in this >tourney

yeah.