How good was Sonny Liston

[censored] · #1 07-02-2005, 09:01 PM

I was able to catch the Clay (Ali) - Liston fights today on EPN classic which was a treat. However the coverage did not really detail how big if any an upset that was. I think it mentioned something like 8-1 against Ali but it was not clear if that was due to ALi being unknown of out of respect for Liston. Was Liston considered a "great" champ or was in more of the Larry Holmes mold as a champ inbetween great champions (Ali and Tyson for Holmes; Lewis and Ali for Liston)? What more recent boxers would he compare to?

Liston record

IronDragon1 · #2 07-02-2005, 09:15 PM

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I was able to catch the Clay (Ali) - Liston fights today on EPN classic which was a treat. However the coverage did not really detail how big if any an upset that was. I think it mentioned something like 8-1 against Ali but it was not clear if that was due to ALi being unknown of out of respect for Liston. Was Liston considered a "great" champ or was in more of the Larry Holmes mold as a champ inbetween great champions (Ali and Tyson for Holmes; Lewis and Ali for Liston)? What more recent boxers would he compare to?

Liston record

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First off, don't worry-I'm not going to be pompus in this boxing thread.

Sonny Liston could more or less be described as an intermediatary between the Marciano (which wasn't even that great an era) and Ali/Foreman/Frazier era. He never had to beat anyone of any real boxing significance (I think Floyd Patterson is dreadfully overrated as a champion) to get his title and when he finally faced a true champion-bam.

To me, a contemporary of his would be-in terms of ability- John Ruiz. Really a big, hard puncher who will hurt you if he gets a hold of you but is pretty easy pickins if he doesn't.

EDIT: Also, his extremely shady dealings and death have definently sullied his legacy

OldYoda · #3 07-02-2005, 09:22 PM

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I was able to catch the Clay (Ali) - Liston fights today on EPN classic which was a treat. However the coverage did not really detail how big if any an upset that was. I think it mentioned something like 8-1 against Ali but it was not clear if that was due to ALi being unknown of out of respect for Liston. Was Liston considered a "great" champ or was in more of the Larry Holmes mold as a champ inbetween great champions (Ali and Tyson for Holmes; Lewis and Ali for Liston)? What more recent boxers would he compare to?

Liston record

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, don't worry-I'm not going to be pompus in this boxing thread.

Sonny Liston could more or less be described as an intermediatary between the Marciano (which wasn't even that great an era) and Ali/Foreman/Frazier era. He never had to beat anyone of any real boxing significance (I think Floyd Patterson is dreadfully overrated as a champion) to get his title and when he finally faced a true champion-bam.

To me, a contemporary of his would be-in terms of ability- John Ruiz. Really a big, hard puncher who will hurt you if he gets a hold of you but is pretty easy pickins if he doesn't.

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Not quite how I remember it. Liston had knocked out Patterson, a man well respected at that time for his boxing skills. No one in the heavyweight division wanted a piece of Liston, who's reputation was as a menacing brawler with a big punch. Ali was given little chance, he had lost his previous fight to a no-name, and was thought to be a pretty boy.

As I recall I got down on the fight at 7-1. Somewhere around the 6th round it was apparent Liston was outclassed and wanted to quit. It was a huge upset at the time.

[censored] · #4 07-02-2005, 09:35 PM

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Ali was given little chance, he had lost his previous fight to a no-name, and was thought to be a pretty boy.

As I recall I got down on the fight at 7-1. Somewhere around the 6th round it was apparent Liston was outclassed and wanted to quit. It was a huge upset at the time.

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Ali's first was to Joe Frazier. He won the fight before Liston againt Henry Cooper which was stopped in the 5th due to cuts. Ali was knocked down in the 4th.

Toro · #5 07-03-2005, 01:17 PM

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Ali was given little chance, he had lost his previous fight to a no-name, and was thought to be a pretty boy.

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I thought that Clay, he didn't become Ali until later, was undefeated when he fought Liston.

Bill Murphy · #6 07-03-2005, 06:35 PM

Christ Awmighty, Liston was a whole lot better than Ruiz. Very hard to place him in my opinion. He destroyed everyone before Ali. God only knows how old he really was, or how the prison terms/mob management affected him.

Huge man, devastating jab. He tore a shoulder muscle in the first Ali fight, that's why he quit, but he wasn't winning that fight under any circumstances. The rematch, well, that's a 1000 word post there. Did he dive? Prolly, but Ali did tag him w/a quick right before he fell, and Walcott didn't know WTFHWD. Sonny appeared ready to continue, he & Ali were swapping when the ringside officials told Walcott to stop it, etc.

At worst he's, IMO, the 2nd best heavyweight btwn the Louis & Ali eras, mainly due to size & power, and he'd've had significant size & age advantages over Marciano had that fight ever happened. But again, he is the most 'mysterious' of all the hvywt champs, so who knows.

Liston v Tyson, Holyfield, Marciano, Louis, Foreman or Fraizer are fascinating dream fights. Ruiz, jesus, he'da lost to Johansson.

[censored] · #7 07-03-2005, 06:49 PM

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Christ Awmighty, Liston was a whole lot better than Ruiz. Very hard to place him in my opinion. He destroyed everyone before Ali. God only knows how old he really was, or how the prison terms/mob management affected him.

Huge man, devastating jab. He tore a shoulder muscle in the first Ali fight, that's why he quit, but he wasn't winning that fight under any circumstances. The rematch, well, that's a 1000 word post there. Did he dive? Prolly, but Ali did tag him w/a quick right before he fell, and Walcott didn't know WTFHWD. Sonny appeared ready to continue, he & Ali were swapping when the ringside officials told Walcott to stop it, etc.

At worst he's, IMO, the 2nd best heavyweight btwn the Louis & Ali eras, mainly due to size & power, and he'd've had significant size & age advantages over Marciano had that fight ever happened. But again, he is the most 'mysterious' of all the hvywt champs, so who knows.

Liston v Tyson, Holyfield, Marciano, Louis, Foreman or Fraizer are fascinating dream fights. Ruiz, jesus, he'da lost to Johansson.

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Good post.