Help me Obi Wan Ka River bet.

Nick709 · #1 01-08-2005, 04:16 PM

You're my only hope.
Anyway I'd appreciate any comments about this hand.
CO is normally fairly LAG and will push AAxx and OESD's like this (even a low flush draw). He will also push a hand that is somewhat like mine if he is a PFR.

Party Poker 10/20 Omaha/8 (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (7 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, CO raises, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (6 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets
Final Pot:

Results later.

Buzz · #2 01-08-2005, 09:40 PM

Nick - Alas, I'm not Obi Wan.

I don't think you really did anything wrong here, except perhaps not anticipate the possible raise from CO and the subsequent fold by UTG on the second betting round.

Your bet on the flop is a semi-bluff, pure and simple. You hope to win the pot with your bet and you have a back-up nut flush draw if you don't, but then when you get raised the bet turns sour. (Raising is the classic defense against players who often semi-bluff). You do have odds to call the raise.

Then after the five of hearts on the turn, you have odds to call a bet.

I like your move on the fourth betting round, but not against an opponent who is either overplaying aces (a distinct possibility here) or who is a cinch to call you for one reason or another. Get caught bluffing just once or twice and you're going to get called almost all the time, or at least enough so that the ploy is not profitable.

I guess LAG means loose aggressive and PFR means pre-flop raiser - but since I'm not Obi Wan, I have no idea what OESD means.

In any event, may the force be with you.

Buzz

Nick709 · #3 01-08-2005, 11:58 PM

OESD= Open ended straight draw, I also meant to say wrap in this case also. Another thing about this hand is this player definitely knows me, he is a regular at the tables and has seen me play plenty. I know he has not seen me try a play like this before because I very rarely do it. Since the play only had to work 1 in 8 times I decided to give it a try, my plan was if called I would revert to only value betting at that table for a while.
And not that I usally have a big problem getting paid off at these tables but it certainly couldn't hurt to have everyone at the table trying to snap me off on what they think is a river bluff since I don't make those plays that often.

Buzz · #4 01-09-2005, 01:45 AM

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Since the play only had to work 1 in 8 times I decided to give it a try, my plan was if called I would revert to only value betting at that table for a while.

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Nick - Seems a good plan.

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It certainly couldn't hurt to have everyone at the table trying to snap me off on what they think is a river bluff since I don't make those plays that often.

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Might work. I like to get away with a selective bluff now and then, so that I'm usually not keen on everyone at the table trying to snap me off. However, I agree with the idea of charging this one to "advertising" if it doesn't work - and then using it to your advantage.

Buzz

Yads · #5 01-10-2005, 11:37 AM

Nick you have to reraise that hand in the SB pre flop. It's a great hand. Now the flop is ok for you and I like the bet on the flop. Turn is fine, however I don't like your river bet. If this guy is as lag as you think he is he's either raising you or calling you. I like check folding my self.

Cue-Ball 66 · #6 01-10-2005, 01:54 PM

I disagree with a raise pre-flop, I don't think shorthanded it's that powerful, maybe with two flush draws, or a pair of aces instead of dueces. I also think the riverbet with the "advertising" odds, plus like you said, it only had to work 1 in 8 times. All round I think you played this fine.

Buzz · #7 01-10-2005, 07:24 PM

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Nick you have to reraise that hand in the SB pre flop.

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Yads - What is the advantage to raising before the flop with that hand? Isn't it that Nick probably gets another small bet from everyone who has already called.

Can you think of a disadvantage to raising before the flop with that hand? I can. Nick tips off other good players in the game about his holding. Although he does get that one extra small bet from limpers on the first betting round, he's less likely to have his opponents paying off on the next three betting rounds (and note that the limits double on the last two betting rounds). When the flop is good for Nick, opponents who might have chased all the way to the river with second or third nut low hands (and maybe also non-nut flush draw hands) are more reluctant to contribute.

Depends on Nick's opponents, I suppose. The Jedi warriers will put him on A2WX for his raise.

A second, (less important, IMHO) disadvantage is by raising before the flop, Nick looses more when he looses. Note that the extra club significantly decreases the chance of ending up making a club flush. (~28%, as I recall). Although the hand does have a decent chance to scoop, and despite the nut club flush draw and various other ways to end up as a winner for high, the hand is primarily a low hand. I'm confident that if you ran simulations, you'd have more winners for low than high. Thus I think of this hand primarily as a low hand with a possible chance to scoop. And there are many ways for a low hands to turn sour.

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It's a great hand.

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Indeed it is a fine starting hand. And Nick can raise before the flop from the big blind with it
(if he chooses to look to the dark side of the force) _[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
- but by raising before the flop, he isn't necessarily going to make more money at the showdown, even on those occasions where he ends up with a winning hand.

Honestly, I actually appreciate having opponents in the game who tip me off as to the cards they hold by raising before the flop from the small blind. And then when they don't raise on other deals, I suspect they don't have the type of hand they'd raise with.

Looking at it one way, a pre-flop raise from the small blind (or lack of it from certain opponents) is a kind of "tell." It's usually an excellent tell, as tells go, although admittedly not 100% accurate for all opponents.

To make the tell less readable, it seems to me that you have to start throwing in pre-flop raises with other hands from the small blind, hands that perhaps don't really merit pre-flop raises. And you have to judge how often to make these non-merited pre-flop raises.

• If it's fun for you to raise before the flop, fine.
• If you can intimidate opponents, with pre-flop raises, and if you have a situation where you want to intimidate opponents or even one particular targeted opponent, fine.
• Otherwise you're giving away a lot of information for what doesn't really amount to much in the way of profitability.

But note that when you raise before the flop from the small blind, the only person who might be immediately intimidated is the big blind. Everyone else will have voluntarily entered the action because they (presumably) think they have favorable odds to play (although they might not phrase it that way). And if they thought they had favorable odds before your raise, they certainly will think they have favorable odds, with even more money in the pot, to call your raise.

I'll agree A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], even with the extra club, is probably the best starting hand at the table on the current deal.

And I'll agree you do get more money in the pot on the first betting round when you raise before the flop.

Thus by raising before the flop you're clearly getting your money in the pot when you have the best of it. I think that would generally be a good thing to do in a game of Texas hole 'em.

Trying to get as much money in the pot as possible before the flop when holding AA, KK, or even QQ in a tight game of Texas hold 'em, hands that have an excellent chance of standing up, seems logical. The principle of getting your money in the pot when you have the best of it with an excellent Texas hold 'em starting hand makes good sense.

But Omaha-8 is a game where you look ahead to the river and try to visualize whether you'll have the winning hand or not.

For example, flopped straights in loose Omaha-8 games are notorious for not standing up.... as are low starting hands.

Even so, I'll admit getting your money on
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] before the flop is a good bet (favorable odds). No denying it.

But by raising before the flop it seems to me you're turning the game into a crap shoot, a one shot proposition. Even though you have the odds on your side for this proposition, I think you can do better by not tipping your hand too early.

At least that's how it seems to me.

Depends on your opponents, I suppose.

Buzz

Yads · #8 01-11-2005, 12:27 PM

I guess Buzz you fall into the school of Omaha 8 players that don't raise pre flop. That's fine. I personally don't see O8 as a river game, I see it almost purely as a starting hand game and to a lesser extent a flop game.
Ok so Nick anounces to the good players that their non nut lows are no good. Ok fine. First off, how many good players are at this table? If there's a hand full they're probably A) not in the hand, or B) if they're in the hand they wouldn't pay off when all they had is a non nut low anyway. So you're getting 1 extra small bet from these good players when they wouldn't have paid you off in the first place. Now if there are more than a handful I would say you need to find yourself a better table.
The second disadavantage is that Nick loses more when he does lose. So by that logic should we only ever raise with the nuts on the river? Of course not that is pure nonsense, ok he raises before the flop and it comes all high cards in hearts, ok so what? Fold, next hand please.
The key to any poker is to get your money in, when you have the best of it, that's what his raise would accomplish, if he's playing in a game where his raise allows your opponent to put him on an exact hand, then A, he's not raising enough or B, find another game. It's the same in any game, even holdem. If all you're raising with are the top 4 hands, nobody will pay you off, if you never bluff, nobody will pay you off. The key is to mix up your game and to get your money in when you have the best of it.
PS. I know you're a good player Buzz and your strategy seems to work for you, I'm just offering up a different point of view. Since there seems to be so much concensus to never raise pre flop in O8.

Hashiell_Dammett · #9 01-13-2005, 06:39 PM

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I guess Buzz you fall into the school of Omaha 8 players that don't raise pre flop. That's fine. I personally don't see O8 as a river game, I see it almost purely as a starting hand game and to a lesser extent a flop game.
Ok so Nick anounces to the good players that their non nut lows are no good. Ok fine. First off, how many good players are at this table? If there's a hand full they're probably A) not in the hand, or B) if they're in the hand they wouldn't pay off when all they had is a non nut low anyway. So you're getting 1 extra small bet from these good players when they wouldn't have paid you off in the first place. Now if there are more than a handful I would say you need to find yourself a better table.
The second disadavantage is that Nick loses more when he does lose. So by that logic should we only ever raise with the nuts on the river? Of course not that is pure nonsense, ok he raises before the flop and it comes all high cards in hearts, ok so what? Fold, next hand please.
The key to any poker is to get your money in, when you have the best of it, that's what his raise would accomplish, if he's playing in a game where his raise allows your opponent to put him on an exact hand, then A, he's not raising enough or B, find another game. It's the same in any game, even holdem. If all you're raising with are the top 4 hands, nobody will pay you off, if you never bluff, nobody will pay you off. The key is to mix up your game and to get your money in when you have the best of it.
PS. I know you're a good player Buzz and your strategy seems to work for you, I'm just offering up a different point of view. Since there seems to be so much concensus to never raise pre flop in O8.

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Can a newbie chime in on this one?

In this situation, I think calling PF is better than raising but not necessarily for the same reasons as Buzz - I actually don't mind if the table bully puts me on A2 with this paticular hand since catching a deuce on the turn or river will appear to have spoiled my low and he may bet into me with a low worse than A4 and a high worse than trip deuces. But anyway...

I'm definitely an advocate of preflop raising - but only when the situation warrants it and I don't think that this situation does. You risk a lot but gain nothing by 3-betting PF here. You don't really need to raise because the LAG has done the raising for you. By calling the raise, you invite the UTG limper to put in that extra bet you were looking for by raising. If you 3-bet you'll probably drive him out - plus you will expose yourself to a cap bet from the LAG. Hero's hand is pretty flop specific and needs a couple of lo cards before it yields its full potential. I would hate to invest 3-4 bets preflop only to get heads up with an LAG on a flop like: J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

The point is, when the flop is dealt the pot size will be the same whether or not you call or reraise but your personal investment in it will be smaller when you just call.

I know there are a lot of Omaha 8 players that don't like to raise preflop because that's when their edge is the smallest. I am not one of those people but I think that in this particular situation raising has a higher risk than it's worth.

BTW Nick - For what its worth, this newbie thinks you played that hand perfectly on all streets. - love the river bluff. What were the results?

-Hash

Nick709 · #10 01-14-2005, 12:57 AM

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What were the results?

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He folded, I took it down.
As far as raising preflop in O8 it is one of the most important aspects of the game, you can tell a lot about a players hand if you only pay attention to what he raises with and what he limps with. I for one like to raise more when in position and with several different types of hands when the situation warrants it. I like to keep people guessing.