Leaving a "Good" Table That You Are Losing On

[zephed56]

[ QUOTE ]
PTY .5/1

Sometimes I've played on what ought to be a very good table with lots of loose players and an average table VP$IP of 35-45, but I stagnate and lose because I get few good hands to play with and most of those I do get happen to get beat by better hands or get sucked out by odds defying callers.

Since the expectation at this table is high and I'm just having a run of bad luck, I figure should stay there and will profit in the long run. But often it just doesn't turn around and I spin my wheels or lose for 30 minutes to an hour.

Often I've found that if I switch tables I will start doing a lot better, even when the new table is not as favorable looking statistically according to Poker Tracker.

I know this defies logic, but I'd say 75-80% of the time it works better for me to switch.

How long do you hang in there on what should be a great table when your not having any luck there?

Signed,
I'd Rather Switch Than Fight

[/ QUOTE ]
Could it be that you are tilting (making bad plays) because you can't get a read on a player? Or does someone have a pretty good read on you? (Lags like tighties, they can bluff us off hands, for instance)

If that's the case, then go ahead and move. Sometimes no matter how I try, I always make the wrong play against an opponent. I just leave because I realize it's tilt.

Otherwise, it's just variance. More than likely.

[Hashiell_Dammett]

Tom
I agree with the general consensus that your results after a few hands of a session should not affect your decision to leave or switch tables. I also agree that if the bad beats are affecting your game you should leave as tilting will only make things worse. - but I think you should actually leave completely instead of switching tables when your on tilt or on the verge of it. If you're not playing your best poker, you shouldn't be playing at any table - period.
At least take a break. Get something to eat. Read a chapter of SSHE to get your mind back on playing correctly and then come back. At these limits, I don't think you need to worry too much about leaving a juicy table full of fish because there is always another equally good table out there (usually several good tables out there).

There are things you can do before you even sit down at the table that might help prevent thinking this way and all of it has to do with your attitude towards the game.

Train yourself to have ZERO expectation for any given session you play. This is much easier said then done [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Before you sit down, tell yourself:
"I'm going to sit down and play my best poker at a one of the many juicy, microlimit tables for X number of hands today.. and I expect that by the end of X number of hands, I will be somewhere between -1,000 BB and & +1,000 BB... but it doesn't really matter where I fall in that range today because I know that a sample of X number of hands will be ultimately irrelevant after 100K hands at this level."

If it helps, set up a stop loss amount for yourself before you sit down. Say for example, 30 BB is the maximum you want to loose in a single session. That way you can tell yourself that your expectation for the session is somewhere between -30 BB and +1,000 BB after a maximum of X number of hands.

You should also reinforce your "Stuart Smiley Daily Affirmation" at the end of every session too. Go over the results and tell yourself that you were right. "I lost/won X number of big bets over X number of hands which is well within the range of things I expected to happen in this session. But ultimately I know that it does not matter since the X number of hands I just played is insignificant over 100K hands."
Downplaying the significance of every session at the end of it will only help for the next session. If it is a losing session, you won't care because you didn't play enough hands for it to mean anything. It also might prevent yourself from patting yourself on the back to hard after a big winning session.

I feel for your pain because I used to have the same problem. I thought if I was a much better player than the people at my table, then I could expect to win over any given number of hands. That's a false statement and I knew it but I half expected to be up every session anyway.
I know these daily affirmations might sound a little corny but they sure helped me when I needed an attitude adjustment. Eventually it will all be instinctive and you won't have to tell yourself anything.

-Hash

[frank_iii]

Nice. And only your 10th post.

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
Tom
I agree with the general consensus that your results after a few hands of a session should not affect your decision to leave or switch tables. I also agree that if the bad beats are affecting your game you should leave as tilting will only make things worse. - but I think you should actually leave completely instead of switching tables when your on tilt or on the verge of it. If you're not playing your best poker, you shouldn't be playing at any table - period.
At least take a break. Get something to eat. Read a chapter of SSHE to get your mind back on playing correctly and then come back. At these limits, I don't think you need to worry too much about leaving a juicy table full of fish because there is always another equally good table out there (usually several good tables out there).

There are things you can do before you even sit down at the table that might help prevent thinking this way and all of it has to do with your attitude towards the game.

Train yourself to have ZERO expectation for any given session you play. This is much easier said then done [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Before you sit down, tell yourself:
"I'm going to sit down and play my best poker at a one of the many juicy, microlimit tables for X number of hands today.. and I expect that by the end of X number of hands, I will be somewhere between -1,000 BB and & +1,000 BB... but it doesn't really matter where I fall in that range today because I know that a sample of X number of hands will be ultimately irrelevant after 100K hands at this level."

If it helps, set up a stop loss amount for yourself before you sit down. Say for example, 30 BB is the maximum you want to loose in a single session. That way you can tell yourself that your expectation for the session is somewhere between -30 BB and +1,000 BB after a maximum of X number of hands.

You should also reinforce your "Stuart Smiley Daily Affirmation" at the end of every session too. Go over the results and tell yourself that you were right. "I lost/won X number of big bets over X number of hands which is well within the range of things I expected to happen in this session. But ultimately I know that it does not matter since the X number of hands I just played is insignificant over 100K hands."
Downplaying the significance of every session at the end of it will only help for the next session. If it is a losing session, you won't care because you didn't play enough hands for it to mean anything. It also might prevent yourself from patting yourself on the back to hard after a big winning session.

I feel for your pain because I used to have the same problem. I thought if I was a much better player than the people at my table, then I could expect to win over any given number of hands. That's a false statement and I knew it but I half expected to be up every session anyway.
I know these daily affirmations might sound a little corny but they sure helped me when I needed an attitude adjustment. Eventually it will all be instinctive and you won't have to tell yourself anything.

-Hash

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I could apply this. I tend to take the opposite approach. I usually put a shotgun barrel in my mouth and and tell myself if I lose I have to pull the trigger. It's worked well so far but I fear it may be -EV for my Full Tilt hat.

[Hashiell_Dammett]

[ QUOTE ]

I wish I could apply this. I tend to take the opposite approach. I usually put a shotgun barrel in my mouth and and tell myself if I lose I have to pull the trigger. It's worked well so far but I fear it may be -EV for my Full Tilt hat.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now that's some real self-motivation. Is that the tough love approach to winning poker?

[Pil Sung Do]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand the logic and agree that it makes sense, but it just doesn't seem to work for me most of the time. It could be just a statistic deviation over a small sample size like you say, though. I have only been playing for a few months. - TomBk

[/ QUOTE ]


I understand what you're saying. I go through this too. One observation that I haven't seen yet is that even though you're playing good cards, when you're hit with a couple bad beats, the bad players start chasing MORE. I don't know if it's conscious or not, but they do against me.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand the logic and agree that it makes sense, but it just doesn't seem to work for me most of the time. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It could be just a statistic deviation over a small sample size like you say, though. I have only been playing for a few months. - TomBk

[/ QUOTE ]

I can relate to this.

What all these messages, no matter what advice was given, has had in common is that your frame of mind matters.

If moving tables puts you into a better frame of mind, then so-be-it... for now.

But you should probably train yourself out of that, rather than training yourself into that (that's what all the mantra-stuff was about).

That said, the BEST table I've ever been in on had a flop percentage of 28%. I made more on that table than any other yet (about 40BB or so)... but still, I pick the loose tables first.

Experience is really the key... the more you play, the more you experience, the more you realize what you're seeing is normal. Recently I had to re-buy-in to a table twice (on paradise default buy-in is 20BB, so I was down about 40BB), but the flop percentage was close to 50%! I ended up making money on that table. Not much, but I did make my money back, because I knew it was a good table.

Anyway... I'm learning to deal with the swings of poker, too, only having played since the end of October myself. Just remember, the swings are normal.

KO

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
How well you are doing should usually not be an issue in the decision to leave a table.

[/ QUOTE ] ... if you don't like playing at a table you've been losing at and as a result play a less than optimum game then leave.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Wario,
I don't think it's causing me to play less than optimally. I just think that some tables are just bad for certain players sometimes, no matter how good the overall quality of the table is theoretically. I believe this at this time although it defies logic. -TomBk