2-4 decision

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I observed the following situation occur recently. I'm so darn nosy that anytime I hear "floor!" I have to poke my nose in and look to see what's the deal, and what decision winds up being made.

Here's the setup:

2-4 game. Tourist city. Alcohol involved in "slightly" higher than minimal quantities.

"FLOOR"

It's the river. Board something like 44Q67 no flush possible.

Dealer tells floor what happened:

First guy bet (he's quite clearly an inexperienced tourist). Second guy called. First guy did not see call, or the other guy's cards. He thought everyone folded, so he tossed his hand in face down. But everyone didn't fold. Second guy had actually called. After second guy called, and first guy tossed hand in face down, dealer took first guy's cards and put them on top of the muck.

What the floor sees: First guy has very obviously fanned out $4 in chips. Second guy has a less than obvious semi-splashed-the-pot $4 call, and judging from what I saw, it was quite likely his card may have been concealed (it's very common for low limit players to conceal their cards, they don't know any better). First guy says he thought everyone folded, and he didn't want to show. Second guy says he called. First guy says he had a full house and would never have folded. Second guy starts getting irate and saying "he folded." Second guy shows his cards, having AKo for no pair.

What's the floor to do?

There are two basic principles at work here, and they conflict somewhat. First off, there's only one player with a live hand. Second, it was obvious that the first guy did not mean to fold, and had acted on incorrect information, so it's a matter of "clear intent."

In addition, I feel it was clearly a dealer error to take the bettor's cards so quickly in this situation, since it was pretty obvious the bettor did not realize he had been called. Action is not always binding if it's made on incorrect information. Dealers also should not be too jumpy when it comes to drunken 2-4 tourists.

Now typically, if the floor comes over to a table and there's only one guy with a live hand, and the other is properly mucked and gone, the decision will almost always be to push the pot to the guy with the live hand. Tough luck, protect your hand already. However, there are some situations where a hand can be retrieved from the muck.

So the questions are...

1. Should the first guy be penalized for his actions, even tho he obviously wasn't clear about the fact he'd been called?

2. Is this a case of "your hand is dead, too bad" ??

3. Should the fact that player one is an obviously inexperienced tourist be taken into consideration?

4. Who gets the pot?

More to follow

al

[Rduke55]

Would this fall into the "if they're easily retrievable" category?

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

OF course these situations should first be sorted out at the player level--#2 should see #1 full and give him the pot. A 2-4 pot is not worth losing your dignity over.

If it is super clear which 2 cards are #1s and it is a FH, I think a reasonable floor could rule in #1's favor, but it depends on the room. In some rooms, the letter of the law must be followed 100% or chaos ensues.

That said, I think it takes a skilled Floor to make the "right" decision, and #1 at least can learn a vluable lesson about public cardroom proceedure, namely "don't let go of your cards untill the pot is moving in your direction" and "pay attention to the action".

I've learned many of these lessons the hard way as well for more money than I care to think about.

[Yads]

The dealer should have said "Show please" when the second player called, but yeah I think this is one of those tough luck for the first player kind of situations. I don't see how the floor could rule in favor of the 1st player.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Because the dealer put the cards directly on top of the muck, they were easily retrieveable. note that putting cards on top, or even on the bottom of the muck, is a dealer error, they should be mucked so as to make them completely unidentifiable. However, mucking them at all in this exact situation might have been a worse error.

al

[Don Olney]

First of all, there are checks on the table from the second guy--- there was a bet, the first guy needs to pay attention--- He mucked done deal---
NO---We both know that here in Vegas a lot of rooms at the lower limits will turn to can the CARDS be saved---and in this case it seems like they were----
I go by MAKE THE NEW PLAYERS HAPPY BUT TEACH THEM AS THEY PLAY RULE-----

[4_2_it]

OK Al, who did you kick in the nuts?

My bet is on the dealer [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Because the dealer put the cards directly on top of the muck, they were easily retrieveable. note that putting cards on top, or even on the bottom of the muck, is a dealer error, they should be mucked so as to make them completely unidentifiable. However, mucking them at all in this exact situation might have been a worse error.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

Since the cards are clearly retrievable give them back to teh bettor and allow him to turn them up. When the cards are retrievable the best hand wins.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
If it is super clear which 2 cards are #1s and it is a FH, I think a reasonable floor could rule in #1's favor, but it depends on the room. In some rooms, the letter of the law must be followed 100% or chaos ensues.

[/ QUOTE ]

The letter of the law in most rooms is that your hand MAY be declared dead for touching the muck. in the interest of fairness the player gets his hand back. Also he said he wanted to show down his hand prior to the card being irretrievably mucked so there is also room to give him his cards based not only on the sprit of the rules but also the written rules.

[CrazyEyez]

If the dealer is certain that the cards are on top, show them and give the pot to #1, assuming he really did have the best hand.

It's better for everyone in the long run. #1 still learns his lesson, #2 learns to make his actions more clear, and the dealer (hopefully) learns how to handle it better the next time. And most importantly, a new player is not turned off or scared away from the game.