Implied Odds Pre-flop

[ChipsAhoya]

In SSHE, etc..., it is said that if you have a loose game, you can profitablly call w/ hands like J9s under the gun because when you hit your hand, you'll win a big pot because everyone staying in give you the implied odds, so for example, if 5-6 people limp to you, you can raise on the button w/ hands like 55 and 98s. It also says, though, that if you have a hand like QTo, you are the one giving the implied odds to everyong drawing to 2 pair, gutshots, etc.

Does this mean that if I have QTo/KTo on the button and there are a lot of limpers to me that I should be inclined to fold these hands even though the pot is growing large at this point? How many hands would QT and the like want to play vs. in a typical low-limit $2/$4 $3/$6 game? 3-4 and not really any more?

Thanks,

have a nice day,
Eric

[benkahuna]

I believe so. I don't like those hands versus a large field at all. Their primary strength is making a good top pair, but against many players it's much more likely to have a kicker that is too low or face two pair or better. I strongly avoid qt and kt in loose games. If you're raising a lot with them, you're only going to get called by better hands in most cases...

[NMcNasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean that if I have QTo/KTo on the button and there are a lot of limpers to me that I should be inclined to fold these hands even though the pot is growing large at this point?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, with a large field on the button you should be inclined to play a wide variety of hands. Folding QTo and KTo would be a mistake and you should probably be playing K9o and Q9o. You just have to learn how to get away from top pair. If you have QT and the flop is Q67 in a six player pot and an early positioned player bets there's nothing wrong with just folding. If you get checkraised on that flop you can also fold. You're mainly looking for 2pair, trips, or a straight. Top pair is merely marginal and don't even think about playing second pair.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean that if I have QTo/KTo on the button and there are a lot of limpers to me that I should be inclined to fold these hands even though the pot is growing large at this point?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, unless you are a LOT better than your opponents postflop; you have to win with one pair sometimes to make these hands profitable, but in some situations (and against some opponents) it will be correct to raise that top pair, and other times correct to fold. Also make sure you know when you have odds to continue with a gutshot, and when you should raise with a straight draw or overcards (or a straight draw WITH overcards) vs. the time you should fold them. Every mistake you make in these situations devalues the hand overall, especially if some of your opponents are tricky and aggressive after the flop.

To the other post that said always fold second pair: once the pot gets to nine bets or so you pretty much have to see the turn unless you're pretty sure you're against a set or better, or the flop shows a flush draw and you have nothing in that suit, or some of your two-pair outs make a straight likely or set up straight redraws. (note that this is a lot of exceptions, which is why you have to really know what you're doing to play these hands well) 5-out draws only need pot odds of 8-to-1 or so to continue, and in this specific situation you will frequently be getting them.

[Xhad]

http://www.cgtv.com/games/column/102004/index.shtml

Take special note of question 2 and 6. Sometimes you will flop things like middle pair or overcards + gutshot, and recognizing how to play these situations and why goes a long way toward being able to play these hands multiway.

[NMcNasty]

You're right about hands like QTo and KTo needing to win with top pair sometimes to be profitable, I shouldn't have said top pair is marginal at best because otherwise KTo wouldn't be much better than something like 52o.

Still, you must be tight postflop. Against five or six other players there's no way you can figure to have five outs when drawing with second pair. You should discount your outs to two. Also raising with straight draws or overcards (especially overcards) against 5 or 6 other players is chip spewing. There's just no way you will be getting these small stakes loose players to fold.

Ideally if you play something like KTo or Q9o you're only going to be continuing on the flop somewhere around 15% of the time. If you are continuing 30 or 40% of the time or more, the "reverse implied odds" theory sets in and you're just paying off the people with sets, straights, and flushes.

[Xhad]

If a pot is five or six handed, at least some of the limpers will be in there with trash; there is no reason to assume everyone or even most of them are in there with real hands. If it's bet and raised before it gets to you, or if your pair outs complete straights or flushes, or if the better is a weak-tight player that won't bet without at least top pair, go ahead and discount your outs, but to do so otherwise is incredibly weak-tight. Also, a lot of these same bad players will automatically limp for one bet, and automatically call one bet on the flop, but fold their weaker draws for one cold raise on the flop if they miss.

If your opponents really are always calling, then raising with overcards is usually a bad idea. But if someone who will bet any piece of the board (and then call down a raise) bets into you and a raise might get the pot heads-up or three-handed at most, then a raise is mandatory if you have at least overcards with some kind of draw (even one as weak as a backdoor flush off a king), or middle pair since the bettor is betting a lot of hands you can beat, there's no reason to assume anyone else has anything, and if the bettor is really passive you may be able to just check it all the way to showdown if you want.

This brings up another point about late position: the free card works more in these games than it does in a more normal game. When you have a gutshot to the nuts and overcards, and the pot is 12 bets, and your opponents will almost always check to you on the turn if you raise, then you should raise whether it will fold anyone or not.