A Play Sans Cards...(long)

PygmyHero · #1 11-18-2005, 06:55 PM

I am going to post two hands here, but the key is what happens in between the hands. Feel free to comment on my play in the hands though.

This hand occurred shortly after I sat down, and I had no read on the villain.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, Villain calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Villain calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Villain calls.

River: (5.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB

Before mucking, I typed, "don't know if I can get away," and used almost my full allotment of time. The following conversation then occurred:

Villain: ace?
PygmyHero: of course
PygmyHero: maybe a bad laydown
Villain: thougt I had queen?
PygmyHero: flush card on the end also
Villain: ok
PygmyHero: so you're saying I had you?
Villain: no a split'
PygmyHero: hmmm...well, well played then
PygmyHero: wait...but what was your kicker?
Villain: you should have concidered the pot ods
PygmyHero: I considered many things [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Villain: my kicker was not in play
PygmyHero: so your kicker was less than a T?
Villain: yeah that is why i raised when the pair came up
PygmyHero: uh-huh
PygmyHero: thanks for the info [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
PygmyHero: I appreciate it
Villain: np

I had not been at this table for long, but for the most part it was chatty and friendly. The way our conversation following the hand proceeded, I believed the villain about the hand and made a note on him/her saying, 'Will CC an EP PFR with Ax,' or similar.

I was talking mostly with a fellow 2+2er, who, later revealed that they had correctly read my hand as not containing an ace. This person also concurs with my assessment that the villain was telling the truth.

It should be pretty obvious where I'm going with this by now, but..

By the time this second hand occurs, I have a pretty good read on the Villain - I think he is a weak calling station.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, Villain calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Villain calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Villain calls, BB calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Villain raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, Villain folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 17.75 BB

I was confident that Villain had another small ace, and did, in fact, turn out to have A7.

Now maybe this hand was destined to occur anyway, but the point I wanted to make is that my table talk allowed me to gain some knowledge of my opponent (and, as a side benefit, maybe making everyone at the table more likely to bluff me in the future), which gives me an edge. Again, maybe hand 2 occurs whether or not I have a read. But in the future, if hand's like hand 1 recur, I would easily (and comfortably) be able to fold in hands that were like the first one. At the same time, I would be able to extract more value from those hands when an ace does not flop (but there are other overs).

I guess I feel like much of the talk in the ML Forum (and maybe everywhere in 2+2 - I don't get out much) centers around the cards and the play of those cards. Rarely do I see substantial discussion of other aspects of the game. For instance, the meta-game (usually there are only brief comments about it existing), note taking, cultivating reads, etc. To me, this example is about table talk, table image to a lesser extent, and extracting information from your opponents (cheaply - without paying a bet).

LoaferGee12 · #2 11-18-2005, 07:05 PM

FWIW, in hand 1 i check-fold the turn. That card really hurts you.

Anyways, in hand 2, are you just disregarding BB's 3-bet?

bozlax · #3 11-18-2005, 07:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, in hand 2, are you just disregarding BB's 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I gotta say, this looks an awful lot like a, "Lookit the big pot I won, and here's how I justify my play after the fact," post. I mean, seriously, if you knew nothing about Villan, are you saying you'd fold or even not cap this river?

#4 11-18-2005, 09:50 PM

great post, i agree completely. one of the best things to do is type only in caps and annoy people on to tilt if your one or 2 tabling. i remember one game i turned 25 in to 90 something in about an hour through putting the others on tilt. what happened was i made a call... which in hindsight looked loose (i think i had a pp and didnt believe the vil) and spiked my set on the river. criticism came from the other player so i just started typing:

"FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BOLD!"

in to the chat box. i continued to do this after every hand i won, or any hand anyone else sucked out. others worth trying are:

"RAISE FOR FUN!"
"THE BEST HAND WON" (especially when AA gets river cracked)

i apologise if this has gone off on a bit of a tangent here, but its just another example of what can be gained from the little chat box [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

ZenMusician · #5 11-18-2005, 10:14 PM

Most (many) here will flame and ridicule tactics such as these.
Being an older-school B&M player, I believe anything that does
not explicitly violate the rules is fair game. If you find any such
moves that work for you, right on.

-ZEN

bottomset · #6 11-19-2005, 12:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I feel like much of the talk in the ML Forum (and maybe everywhere in 2+2 - I don't get out much) centers around the cards and the play of those cards. Rarely do I see substantial discussion of other aspects of the game

[/ QUOTE ]

um because your opponents don't do much besides call

here are the majority of your lines

A.raise

a.bet,bet,bet, win
b.bet,bet,check .. sometimes win
c.bet,check, fold
d.bet,check,raise(draws getting there is fun)
e.bet,check, call

the opponents are prone to calling too much, and not fond of making moves, or raising postflop

gharp · #7 11-19-2005, 12:30 AM

I'm someone who was always from the never-talk-at-the-tables camp. I still think that's the best thing to do when you're not sure, but if you're careful, I'm starting to believe you can make the chatter work to your advantage. Plus, it's just more fun.

And I like discussing these meta-game aspects that come into play at higher levels, even if they don't matter quite as much at 1/2 (as bottomset pointed out).

Also, I'm the fellow 2+2er in this hand, and I was the BB in hand two. What were my cards?

PygmyHero · #8 11-19-2005, 01:07 AM

LoaferGee and bozlax, while I appreciate your input, I think you've misunderstood the purpose of my post. While I welcom comments on the play of the hand, you ignore my actions outside the hand. Do you have any input on that aspect of the post?

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I gotta say, this looks an awful lot like a, "Lookit the big pot I won, and here's how I justify my play after the fact," post.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is an interesting comment given that I did not post the results of the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, seriously, if you knew nothing about Villan, are you saying you'd fold or even not cap this river?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, and in fact I address this point in the OP. Maybe you missed the part where I explicitly said the knowledge of villain's CC-ing range would help me more when I had a hand like 99.

In any event, I have discussed this hand with the 2+2-er who was involved, and we agreed I was probably incorrect to cap the river.

silencio · #9 11-19-2005, 01:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Also, I'm the fellow 2+2er in this hand, and I was the BB in hand two. What were my cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

QT?