Am I a complete idiot for throwing away JJ on the turn here?

cognito20 · #1 05-09-2005, 08:35 AM

No real reads on any of the players on the table, relatively early hand in my session. The table does seem a little tighter than your average PS 0.25/0.50, but not horribly so.

Given the action on the flop and turn, I thought I was up against at least one flopped set, so I threw away an overpair JJ. Do you think this was a reasonable read, or was I being overly paranoid that my opponent had something in a micro-limit room?

In retrospect, I think that the pot size at that point alone would've justified seeing the hand through, although I'm not sure. That second 4 hitting on the turn scared the bejesus out of me, especially since the SB was the one betting aggressively and might have come limping in with any old trash containing a 4. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO caps, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero folds.

River: (15.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

kiddj · #2 05-09-2005, 08:41 AM

Raise preflop. The whole hand plays differently from there.

texasholdemnut · #3 05-09-2005, 08:45 AM

Personally I would have raised preflop to run of the blinds at the very least. But considering the way you played it, I think it was a good laydown, sounds like the SB hit his 4, looks like CO is raising a flush draw, seen many micro players do this.

deepsquat · #4 05-09-2005, 08:52 AM

It sux when its bet and then raised b4 you get to it on a draw heavy board like this.

Raise pf, but the way you played it i would just call this raise and raise a turn blank when you equity will increase alot. This board has reverse implied odds everywhere

car ramrod · #5 05-09-2005, 08:59 AM

First off you have to raise this pf.
The flop has a bunch of people on draws, look how the turn action slowed down.
Then SB wakes up, so he probably hit a 4, but I think your ahead of every one else. I may call down, but a folds ok.

A raise pf may have gotten SB to fold his 4 and the hand would have played a lot different.

@bsolute_luck · #6 05-09-2005, 09:08 AM

where did CO go?

fold is fine, but preflop limp is bad. raise it.

cognito20 · #7 05-09-2005, 09:24 AM

In retrospect, yes, I see what you all mean, I should have raised with the JJ preflop. But wouldn't that just function as a pot-sweetener behind a bunch of limpers? Granted, I almost certainly have the best hand here preflop, but JJ is vulnerable. If an ace flops against a bunch of loose limpers, I've got to assume I'm toast unless a jack also comes or I get some sort of draw, and I also have to watch myself against a K or a Q. I would've raised this hand preflop to more than the size of the pot in a no-limit game to get the stragglers out, but in a PS 0.25/0.50, none of these people are going to back off for an extra bet. Granted, -in this case-, in retrospect, a raise would've solved my problem most likely, but is it really the right play in the long run?

@bsolute_luck · #8 05-09-2005, 09:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In retrospect, yes, I see what you all mean, I should have raised with the JJ preflop. But wouldn't that just function as a pot-sweetener behind a bunch of limpers? Granted, I almost certainly have the best hand here preflop, but JJ is vulnerable. If an ace flops against a bunch of loose limpers, I've got to assume I'm toast unless a jack also comes or I get some sort of draw, and I also have to watch myself against a K or a Q. I would've raised this hand preflop to more than the size of the pot in a no-limit game to get the stragglers out, but in a PS 0.25/0.50, none of these people are going to back off for an extra bet. Granted, -in this case-, in retrospect, a raise would've solved my problem most likely, but is it really the right play in the long run?

[/ QUOTE ]

JJ is a big winner in the long run. the preflop raise is because you probably have the best hand now (i've seen AA-QQ limpers [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] ), so you get the money now. but, yes, if an A-Q falls, you may have to reevaluate and be willing to let it go if you feel you're beat.

the thinking you have now could be applied to AA-QQ too. why raise with lots of limpers because i may lose to a flopped 2 pair? you're ahead now, so get the money now. but do remember it is just 1 pair.

kiddj · #9 05-09-2005, 09:41 AM

JJ is a profitable hand to raise preflop from any position. You were on the button = even better.

If you have a bunch of limpers it's even better. Make them pay when you most likely have the best hand. If a ragged-type flop comes, those limpers with off suit overcards to your Jacks will probably check to you (since you raised), and you can frequently win this with a flop bet. Raising this on the button also makes it incorrect for the blinds (basically random hands) to call preflop.

Also, if you make your set and there is an overcard on the board, you stand to make a killing. Yes. Sometimes you will lose to some jackass playing A-rag who catches an Ace, but this should be apparent when it happens (by the betting). Fearing overcards should not be a reason to limp when you have equity.

Should you limp KK in fear of an Ace? QQ?

2+2 Junkie · #10 05-09-2005, 09:43 AM

Without looking at the other posts, you HAVE to raise that pre-flop, the rest of the hand would play differently.

As far as flop action, someone either has a straight, or they are going on the straight draw. I wouldn't give them credit for this yet.

Turn, that 4 looks bad, but gives you additional outs if you are up against a straight. The two J's remaining would have given you trips, no good, but with the board pairing, you know have a chance at a full house. Don't fold here. Just call and see what the river brings, depending on the action (no raising again in front of you), just call and flip the screen off when they turn over the straight.