Question on heads-up Stud, Stud/8, and Razz

[cognito20]

(NOTE: I originally posted this earlier today in the Heads-Up and Shorthanded forum, but was told I would probably get a better response in the Stud forum, so here goes, again...)

Hi everyone. My name's Scott, and I've just joined the 2+2 boards. I've been playing for about 6 months, and I'm mostly an online and home-game low-limit (0.50/1 through 2/4) player, although I do occasionally play in ring games at Turning Stone and Seneca Niagara (I live in Ithaca, NY).

Basically, I have a question concerning acceptable starting hands in heads-up matches, especially as applies to Seven-Card Stud, Stud Eight-or-Better, and Razz. My brother and I play weekly heads-up rotation matches (Limit Hold Em, Stud, Stud Hi/Low, Omaha, Omaha Hi/Low, Razz). We play starting with 1500 in chips apiece, Hold Em/Omaha structure is 10/20, and Stud is 15/30 with a dealer ante of 5 and a bring-in of 5. Now, I realize that, in Limit Hold Em headsup, pretty much any two cards are playable from the button, since you're in position and, with 5 and 10 blinds, getting 3-1 effective pot odds when no hand is that much of an underdog against a random hand. My question is, does this same logic apply to Stud, Stud/8 and Razz? In other words, with this ante, bring-in, and bet structure, is any hand playable against an opponent who just brings it in for the lower amount (5), i.e. is there any hand in Stud, Stud/8 or Razz that would be more than a 2-1 underdog against a random hand? If so, what do you think they would be? I realize that a lot of heads-up play is dependent on the opponent you're playing and your read of him/her, but are there hands out there, all other things being equal, that you would just throw away on Third Street? Also, what standards would you use to determine, if you are the bring-in, whether to either bring it in for the full amount or to call or reraise your opponent if he raises your bring-in? Would it be better to use something hand-value oriented, or something more in line with game theory?

I know this is a lot, especially for a first post, but any help you could give would be greatly appreciated. I'm finding 2+2 greatly informative thus far, and look forward to a long continuing dialogue with all of you. Cheers. :-)

--Scott M. Blish
Ithaca, NY

[Andy B]

I don't think that playing any two from the button is correct in heads-up hold'em. By limping, you're telling the other guy that you're weak, which opens you up to a raise. So much for your 3:1 odds. Also, there are plenty of scenarios where one hand is more than a 3:1 favorite. Any pair is about a 4.5:1 favorite favorite over a smaller pair. Any pair is a prohibitive favorite against two under-cards.

In stud variations, there can be much bigger differences in hand values than in hold'em because, well, you start with three cards rather than two. Taking high-only stud first, 222 is a huge favorite against AAK. Rolled-up trips against something like 973 is a ridiculous favorite. A decent pair against three random cards is a pretty big favorite. And so on. In razz, if you take a three-card Six against KKK, you can hardly lose. You can find similar scenarios in stud/8. Go to www.twodimes.net/poker and play around with different scenarios.

[TheShootah]

I can help you a little bit with Razz. As you can prolly guess, raising is almost always correct. For instance, you have (A K) 6 and the bring in is a J. You should raise so that if you catch good again, you can win the pot on fourth. I find in heads up Razz, aggressive play is best. Noone knows what you have underneath, and if you keep betting, it's hard to put up with that. The real battles come when you both have decent hands. Also, when you raise with lower down cards almost everytime you may get more action on decent hands, because that is how you play the bad ones too. There is alot of deception taking place.

[cognito20]

Hi Andy. Thanks for your reply. This is probably better posted in the Headsup or Hold Em forums, but since the original reply/response was over here, here goes. As far as headsup holdem goes, I don't necessarily LIMP with any 2 cards from the button in a headsup match. In fact, I generally use randomization techniques (suits of the cards, the last digit of the seconds display on the digital clock I generally put within my sight when my brother and I play, etc. ;-) ) to determine, on the button, whether I'm going to limp or raise with any particular hand. So basically, he has no way whatsoever of telling just from my first bet whether I'm weak or strong. If I limp with a good to strong hand and he jacks it up, he's usually (not always, to add some deception, but usually) going to get reraised if I have any ace, any king, any 2 cards 9+, or a pocket pair, and I'll at least see a flop with anything else.

I also certainly agree that there are plenty of hands that are, situationally, more than 3:1 underdogs against other hands, like the 4.5-1 big pair vs. smaller pair scenario you mentioned. Problem is, if I'm sitting there with a pair on the button, I'm not automatically assuming that my opponent's waiting for me with a higher pair. If he does, then, yes, I'm a 4.5-1 dog -in that situation-. Most of the time, he doesn't have anything like that. I contend that, against the range of hands he is likely to have (which, in a heads-up match with me acting first, is absolutely anything...i.e., a random hand), there is no hand that is that big of an underdog against that range. I haven't done an analysis of it, yet anyway, but I would be surprised if even 7-2 offsuit, played against 1 million random hands by a computer, won less than 25% of the time. Maybe it would, but I'd be surprised. If by my reads of my opponent, the subsequent betting, and other info that emerges throughout the play of the hand, I know or have a pretty good idea he has something better, then, yes, I need to adjust my thinking and calculation of the odds. But coming first in from the button, I have no reason to fear monsters under the bed unless I have some palpable evidence that they're there first.

Thanks for the poker calculator recommendation as well, and for your advice on Stud and Razz. I'll have to play around some on twodimes and let you know what I find out. And, Shootah, thank you as well for your Razz advice...there's so little out there on heads-up Razz (or Stud, for that matter) strategy that every morsel I can soak up is appreciated.

--Scott

[TheShootah]

No prob...you seem like a nice guy, so it's good to have you around. Also, as Andy said, use twodimes. You can kinda gauge what you can with by how good you think your opponents hands are based on the percentages.

[Andy B]

My real point was that in heads-up hold'em, you can't limp with any two from the button. I'll play some fairly weak hands, mind you, but you can't be calling with J5o or anything.