A Simple question that involves Science, Math, and Philosophy

[Zeno]

Why do you listen to music?

-Zeno

PS Please give it some thought before answering.

[spaminator101]

How does this involve science, math, and philosophy.

[Zeno]

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How does this involve science, math, and philosophy.

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The prelude title to the question is off key. In fact the question is poorly done for what I was initially intending to ask, but perhaps I was predestined to make this mistake.

-Zeno

[spaminator101]

Hum, perhaps you were. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Myrtle]

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How does this involve science, math, and philosophy.

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The prelude title to the question is off key. In fact the question is poorly done for what I was initially intending to ask, but perhaps I was predestined to make this mistake.

-Zeno

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Well, Zeno, I don't know if it was a mistake.....I've been out digging ditches for the past couple of hours.....manual labor is good for the soul.. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Have also been thinking more about your question while laboring and I'd like to take a more detailed (for me) stab at it.

I would preface this attempt with the statement that advanced math is a weakness on my part, so if I make some sort of error, after you're through chuckling, please consider that.

The Math & Science component - I attempted to touch on it in my last post. Let me try to expand and see if it makes any sense at all.

'Music' is comprised of a complex set of tones, which can be mathematically described by what we call their frequency. That frequency (or tone) can be measured (in cycles per second, today called Hertz [Hz]) and a set of numbers ascribed to it. One Hz is then defined as a sound that is produced as sound that completes one sinusoidal waveform. It therefore follows that 30Hz = 30 cycles of that waveform....... 1,000Hz = 1K....etc. etc.

Tones exhibit a number of different behaviors. There is the ‘basic’ tone, and there are other tones that are also generated as a component of this basic tone that we describe as ‘overtones’. Those overtones we have defined as ‘harmonics’. To further complicate this, harmonics can be either ‘even’ or ‘odd’ as multiples of the original tone.

The best practical example that I can think of is: Consider middle C; played on a trumpet, piano, violin, or any of the number of different instruments used to generate music. We immediately recognize the different ‘sound’, however the basic tone is the same. The difference is the complex and unique set of harmonics generated by the each instrument. Once we have experienced middle C on a trumpet, we can immediately differentiate it from middle C on a piano.

Now let me make a jump, and propose that there is a possibility that each of us has a ‘sympathetic set’ of these complex harmonics that is unique to each of us and is determined by our own physical structure.

If that is possible, and we are uniquely ‘pre-tuned’ to physically respond to a particular set of harmonics, could that not possibly be an explanation of the ‘chills up & down our spine’ that many of us experience from time-to-time when listening to music? When we hear the right combination of harmonics that match our own natural physical ‘resonances’, we actually physically respond.

Philosophy - Different discipline, of course, but let me give it a whirl. We are the sum of our experiences: intellectual, emotional, sensual. There are conscious and unconscious aspects of the sum of our experiences, that in my experience can be very deep and personal, and very difficult to describe.

The best way that I can address this issue is to share a few examples and see if it strikes a chord......No pun intended.

Beethoven was going deaf during the composition of his 6th Symphony. By the time he began composing his 7th Symphony, he was completely deaf. Sit down and listen to the 7th sometime, and keep that fact in mind. Listen to the elegiac beauty of the 2nd movement and realize that Beethoven created this without the ability to hear his own creation. My mind boggles when I think of this. Yes, Beethoven was clearly a genius, but the ability to do what he did, handicapped by being totally deaf, goes beyond genius to something that I can’t begin to describe or truly understand. It touches me deeply in ways that I am unable to describe with mere words.

And, oh yea, he then went on to compose his 9th Symphony.....Totally deaf; He never got to hear either of them......

Next experience, with a preface: It’s 1969, I’m an aircrew member in the Navy and in Vietnam. One of our planes goes into the drink on final to a carrier in the Gulf on Tonkin. There are no survivors. I was a friend of everyone on the plane. Herb, the pilot was one of the finest men I have ever met. Jack, one of my best friends was also a pilot, and a close friend of Herbs. When the news got to us, we were dumbfounded, and really didn’t know what to say to one another. Jack pulled out a copy of Prokofiev’s 5th, and we just sat there, not saying a word to each other, and listened to the whole symphony.

Now I’m not sure at all if any the above falls into the category of ‘Philosophy’ vs. personal emotional experience, but to this day, when I listen to the 5th, the intensity of that experience is so vivid, that it all comes back, as if it just happened again.

These are just two of the many ‘connections’ that I experience surrounding music. It has always been my feeling that it affects most others in a similar fashion.

Tell me what music does it for you, and you give me an insight into your soul that I cannot get from mere words......

[RJT]

Myrtle,

A very moving post. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

RJT

[Myrtle]

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Myrtle,

A very moving post. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

RJT

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....You're very welcome.

I am wondering if you also find that music has similar 'communicative' components for you?

There is the music itself, and then, if there are lyrics along with the music, they must also be factored into its' overall meaning.

Is the form of communication that I'm alluding to just between me and the composer only, or is there some sort of 'universal code' that can be attributed to a particular piece?

In other words, when the music hall is full, and all of us are all listening to the same piece at the same time, is the 'effect' essentialy the same for all of us?

I have a feeling that this is not a black & white issue, which may be stating the obvious.

What I'm searching for goes something like this:

We're all listening to a performance of Liszt's "Faust Symphony", and all of us are familiar with the story line of Faust. We have read the program, and it gives us a written analysis of 'what the music is all about' from the program writers point of view.

Do these two issues not now predispose us to interpreting the music in a certain similar fashion? Or....do they simply set a common baseline for overall interpretation upon which our individual, unique 'understanding' is built?

Have you ever found yourself with another person, and after listening to a piece of music, turning to them and nodding, as if simply saying "ya", convinced that you've both shared the same set of communications without even having to talk about it?

It seems to me that each of our own unique personal histories and experiences must have a bearing on what we 'get' out of any piece of music.

What I'm searching for here is an attempt to come to some sort of understanding as to where the universal 'understanding' (for lack of a better term) is overtaken by the 'personal understanding'?

[scalf]

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] myrtle: quite simply; one of the very best contributions; equal or better than one of john cole's.

clearly memory is associated with music; remember the mash episode where the boston dr. could not bear to listen to one of his favorite symphonies; due to it now being associated with death and cruelty...

smell is another key sense associated with memory..and of course smell neurons are right down in the nose, but are technically a part of the cns; you do blow out part of your brains; so to speak; every time you sneeze;;

so you seee; we are here to learn...you take with you what you gave; when you look down on that lump of clay; you will not want to go back..and some hear music here; although it is the light; the intense white, pure light that is remembered; but those gaudy baubles we fought so hard to obtain; they very quickly are someone else's...

try..

gl

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Myrtle]

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[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] myrtle: quite simply; one of the very best contributions; equal or better than one of john cole's.

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....That could be taken in more than one way! [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] However, I'll take it as a compliment, and thank you for it.

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clearly memory is associated with music; remember the mash episode where the boston dr. could not bear to listen to one of his favorite symphonies; due to it now being associated with death and cruelty...

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...yes, indeed. An example of that for me is the movie "The Deer Hunter". I have only seen it once, and after having watched it that one time, I can never watch it again....It's simply too close for me.

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smell is another key sense associated with memory..and of course smell neurons are right down in the nose, but are technically a part of the cns; you do blow out part of your brains; so to speak; every time you sneeze;;

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...agree with the equation of smell (and other senses) and how it correlates to memory. As far as blowing our brains out? It is truly amazing then, that those of us with constant sinusitis are even able to sit at a keyboard and put a sentence together, eh? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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so you seee; we are here to learn...you take with you what you gave; when you look down on that lump of clay; you will not want to go back..and some hear music here; although it is the light; the intense white, pure light that is remembered; but those gaudy baubles we fought so hard to obtain; they very quickly are someone else's...

try..

gl

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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....try we must, and try I will [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Zeno]

Very enjoyable post.

Thanks.
Sounds

-Zeno