Larry Phillips' "Zen and the Art of Poker"

FakeKramer · #1 01-13-2005, 08:40 PM

Who has read it? I just finished it, and personally, I wasn't terribly impressed. He puts WAY too much stock into how the cards are treating you. Personally, I feel the cards are totally random all the time, and that you don't get "rushes" that can be ridden on like some pony at a fair. But that's just me.

It did have some value in getting me to stop going on tilt so often, but from a strategy standpoint, I think Phillips should leave it to the more successful guys.

On the first page of his book, he cites his biggest poker accomplishment as "2nd place in the 1997 Wisconsin Poker championship". Certainly more than I've done for myself, but hardly enough to start penning books, just my two cents.

What did you think?

cowboyzfan · #2 01-14-2005, 12:49 AM

Lederer recommends Zen and the Art of Archery. The fact that he reccomends a book on Archery over the one on Poker must say something. OTOH, Phil Gordon does reccomend the one on poker.

DanTheMan0909 · #3 01-14-2005, 02:09 AM

Zen in the art of Archery is a good book, but hardly worth reading as a poker player. There are some fine points about reaching your goals which can be used in any sport, where concentration is a key factor but other than that it's just another story about a western man trying to learn the "Zen way" of doing something.

I've heard some great things about Zen in the art of poker, but I have not read it yet.

deacsoft · #4 01-14-2005, 02:25 AM

I'm certainly not one to judge Mr. Phillips, but... As far as poker play goes; he may not be the greatest. As far as putting stock in to how the cards are treating you; sure, he may value it a little too much. As far as the book being worth the $10 I paid for it; you bet your [censored] it was.

I won the Midwest Poker Tour Championship in March of 2004. Do I think it is some great accomplishment? No. Do I value Mr. Phillips placing 2nd in the Wisconsin State tournament? No. Do I value his opinion as an intelligent person and one who happens to be decent at poker? Yes.

It's a good book and well worth the read for a whole $10. Why not read it?

cowboyzfan · #5 01-14-2005, 03:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm certainly not one to judge Mr. Phillips, but... As far as poker play goes; he may not be the greatest. As far as putting stock in to how the cards are treating you; sure, he may value it a little too much. As far as the book being worth the $10 I paid for it; you bet your [censored] it was.

I won the Midwest Poker Tour Championship in March of 2004. Do I think it is some great accomplishment? No. Do I value Mr. Phillips placing 2nd in the Wisconsin State tournament? No. Do I value his opinion as an intelligent person and one who happens to be decent at poker? Yes.

It's a good book and well worth the read for a whole $10. Why not read it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your just taking up for a fellow Cheesehead, lol. But seriously, I WOULD be proud of winning the Midwest Poker Tour Championship. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

I do plan on reading this book and reading the one on archery. And yes, to the other poster, Lederer particularly recommends ZATAOA for its ability to teach focus.

Hashiell_Dammett · #6 01-14-2005, 02:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Who has read it? I just finished it, and personally, I wasn't terribly impressed. He puts WAY too much stock into how the cards are treating you. Personally, I feel the cards are totally random all the time, and that you don't get "rushes" that can be ridden on like some pony at a fair. But that's just me.

[/ QUOTE ]
I liked the book but I know what you are talking about here. There's one part about being prepared/aware of when cards run hot or cold. I'll give Phillips the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he was trying to make a point about your reaction to an unusually long spell of unplayable cards and/or suck outs. But the way he phrases it he makes it sound like there is a predictable pattern to the cards being dealt that you have to be tuned in to. As far as I remember though, this is the only occurrence of this kind of thing. I certainly don't think that there was WAY too much of it.

[ QUOTE ]

It did have some value in getting me to stop going on tilt so often, but from a strategy standpoint, I think Phillips should leave it to the more successful guys.

[/ QUOTE ]
Any propensity to go on tilt can be huge leak in your game so if Phillips helps you plug that leak and nothing else, then the book is worth truckloads more than the cover price.

I don't remember any advice on strategy. Do you have examples? I read it while ago so I just picked it up again and started flipping through. Most of it seems pretty general like "Make patience a central pillar of your strategy" and "Arrive with a system."

[ QUOTE ]

On the first page of his book, he cites his biggest poker accomplishment as "2nd place in the 1997 Wisconsin Poker championship". Certainly more than I've done for myself, but hardly enough to start penning books, just my two cents.

[/ QUOTE ]
The author's poker resume is not that important to me. Anybody who has played this game with a brain capable of both creative and rational thought has the potential to teach me something. I have gotten tons of insight on this forum from all sorts of players. I'm sure that I must have a more impressive resume than some of them but that doesn't devalue their insight.

Did you read the part about the author before you read the book? If you read the book with idea already in your head that this guy has nothing to offer you because he has not accomplished as much as you, then that might be the reason why you didn't like it.

GreywolfNYC · #7 01-14-2005, 03:32 PM

Lederer on Poker and Zen

pryor15 · #8 01-25-2005, 05:02 AM

the main strength of the book, in my opinion, is in the mental approach to the game. It doesn't pretend to give strategy, whatever, but it gives sound advice on staying focused and avoiding tilt. someone else mentioned that as a worthwhile reason to read it.

he mentions somewhere in there the approach of acting like the card that's just been turned is the card you expected all along, no matter how awful of a river it is [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] . i've found that very helpful in live games.

TwoShedsJackson · #9 01-25-2005, 07:48 AM

I found the anti-tilt and being wary of aggression sections more interesting: some of the stuff about playing more hands when you're running well is a bit questionable, but by no means utterly terrible.

jojobinks · #10 01-25-2005, 03:19 PM

i read just about every poker book i can find, but i'm kinda sick like that.

this book is good for the state of mind stuff, and that's about it. in fact, in his sister book, tao and poker:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...604700-2456659

he talks about the above complaints, including the lack of strat in zen, and the advice about playing more hands when you're running well, etc.

his defense (which i buy) is that the first book was more for beginners, and those that have problems with patience and tilt. the purpose of it was to help players get into the state of mind.

tao is aimed more at tactics and strategy. i didn't finish it b/c it got lost (somewhere in my apartment) but i found it somewhere between great and relatively valuable.

zen stands out among all poker books in that it's purpose is one that is addressed NOWHERE else (any arguments? i'd like to hear them). tao is not as strong, b/c strat and tactics are written about EVERYWHERE else.