|
|
#11
01-14-2005, 11:41 AM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Help me Obi Wan Ka River bet.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] What were the results? [/ QUOTE ] He folded, I took it down. [/ QUOTE ] Did you show the bluff? 
|
|
#13
01-15-2005, 10:01 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Help me Obi Wan Ka River bet.
[ QUOTE ]
I guess Buzz you fall into the school of Omaha 8 players that don't raise pre flop. [/ QUOTE ] Yads - On the basis of some of the stuff I’ve posted, I can see how you might think that. However, that would not be correct. You could more accurately put me in the school of Omaha-8 players whose pre-flop raises don’t usually have much specifically to do with which particular cards they hold. When I raise before the flop it is usually because I want to intimidate one or more of my opponents and when I think raising before the flop will accomplish that goal. When my tactic accomplishes its goal, I think I’m playing well. When I try something and it doesn’t work, then I think I have not played well. Sometimes I seem to have my opponents eating out of my hand. Other times it’s more like they’re chewing on my fingers. Seems to me there are two chief reasons for raising at any time in limit Omaha-8. (1) to get more of your opponent’s money in the pot on the current betting round without jeopardizing their contributions on future betting rounds when you will have the best of it, and (2) to knock out opponents who would beat you for part or all of the pot if they stayed to see the showdown. When you raise before the flop with A2XX from the small blind, you give opponents insight into your hand. This has various negative effects, including (but not limited to) jeopardizing their contributions on future betting rounds when you have the best of it. [ QUOTE ] I personally don't see O8 as a river game, I see it almost purely as a starting hand game and to a lesser extent a flop game. [/ QUOTE ] I’m not sure what that means. Although the person who has the best starting hand is ahead before the flop, the person who has the best fit with the flop takes the lead after the flop. That may be the person who had the best starting hand, but it may also be someone else. Then the lead may change again after the turn - and again on the river. Bottom line: The person who wins the pot is the person who has the best hand on the river, not necessarily the person who, before the flop had what seemed like the best starting hand - and not necessarily the person who had the lead after the flop and after the turn. That is not to denigrate starting hand selection, which I believe is an important aspect of Omaha-8 play. [ QUOTE ] Ok so Nick anounces to the good players that their non nut lows are no good. Ok fine. First off, how many good players are at this table? If there's a hand full they're probably A) not in the hand, or B) if they're in the hand they wouldn't pay off when all they had is a non nut low anyway. So you're getting 1 extra small bet from these good players when they wouldn't have paid you off in the first place. Now if there are more than a handful I would say you need to find yourself a better table. [/ QUOTE ] All points well taken. [ QUOTE ] The second disadavantage is that Nick loses more when he does lose. So by that logic should we only ever raise with the nuts on the river? [/ QUOTE ] Whoa. What logic? I don’t necessarily need the nuts on the river to be reasonably certain I have a winner. And when I think I have a winner, I’ll endeavor to maximize the money going into the pot. That may or may not involve raising. Don’t you have a better and better idea whether you have a winner or not as you see more and more cards? • Before the flop all you see is the four cards in your hand. You’re going to use two of these cards to fit with three cards from a five card board you haven’t seen yet to make a high hand. You may not even qualify for low, but if you do, you’re going to use two of these cards to fit with three as yet unseen cards. • After the flop you have much more information. • After the turn you have even more information. • After the river, you finally see all the cards that are available to you to make a hand. It’s not deep. Before the flop you only see two of the cards you will use to make a five card hand. After the flop you have more information. The more information you have, the better you should be able to make am intelligent decision. Don’t you know better whether you should be in the hand after the flop? I agree you have an edge before the flop if you have the best starting hand. But don’t you have an even bigger edge if you have the best fit with the flop? Yes, I realize when your A2XX is the best fit with the flop and goes on to win the hand, you’ll lose an extra bet on the first betting round from those who will fold after the flop. But don’t you realize it will be obvious to your opponents when your A2XX is the best fit with the flop? Don’t you realize more will fold after the flop when you have a good fit with the flop? Those who are playing hands such as A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] will know you have A2XX. When the flop is 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], if you bet, they’ll fold - if you check, they’ll check too. You’ll get that one extra small bet from them, but then you’ll get nothing more. And on the other hand, when the flop is 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], with or without A4XX, they’ll be able to out-play you. [ QUOTE ] Of course not that is pure nonsense, ok he raises before the flop and it comes all high cards in hearts, ok so what? [/ QUOTE ] He loses twice as much by raising. That’s what. Not a big deal, I suppose. Still.... He would also lose twice as much if he lost by raising after the flop. The difference is he should have a better idea after the flop whether he is going to lose or not. Similarly, he would lose twice as much by raising on the river if he lost. But on the river he should have a much better idea. [ QUOTE ] The key to any poker is to get your money in, when you have the best of it [/ QUOTE ] Bunk. At best that’s a partial truth. I don’t know who thought of the wording for that platitude, but wouldn’t you rather have your opponents get their money in when you have the best of it? Even better, wouldn’t you rather get more of your opponent’s money in the pot on the current betting round without jeopardizing their contributions on future betting rounds when you will have the best of it? [ QUOTE ] that's what his raise would accomplish [/ QUOTE ] Gee whiz! He can only see two of the five cards he will use to make a hand! Aren’t you awarding the pot prematurely? And aren’t you forgetting about opponent contributions on future betting rounds when he will have even more of the best of it? [ QUOTE ] if he's playing in a game where his raise allows your opponent to put him on an exact hand, then A, he's not raising enough [/ QUOTE ] You and I have both reached the same conclusion. To disguise his raising hands, he has to raise with hands that don’t really justify a pre-flop raise. There’s not really any way around it. And when he does that, isn’t he throwing money away on the hands that don’t justify pre-flop raises? I can see striking some balance - but doesn’t the balance depend on how your opponents perceive your play? (I’m skipping some steps in the logic here, but that’s where I get in the reasoning, the bottom line). And once you get to that point in your reasoning, I think the emphasis switches to how to best play your opponents. (That’s how it worked for me). Some Omaha-8 players never get to that point. They look down and see that they have a good starting hand and they want to raise with it because somebody told them to raise when they “have the best of it.” In my humble opinion, maybe a raise is a good idea but maybe it isn’t. Always raise with A2XX? Some opponents do. It’s like they let me have a peek at their cards. When I raise with A2XX myself, even if I do mix up my play, some of my opponents put me on A2XX and use the knowledge against me. [ QUOTE ] or B, find another game. [/ QUOTE ] Yes. Seems to me a good idea to find another game when your opponents are out-playing you. But finding a new game and sticking to your penchant for telegraphing your hand to the next group of opponents doesn’t seem the best adjustment you can make. I suppose you can find games packed with players who never do seem to catch on, but I can think of another (obvious) adjustment. [ QUOTE ] It's the same in any game, even holdem. If all you're raising with are the top 4 hands, nobody will pay you off, if you never bluff, nobody will pay you off. [/ QUOTE ] I think that might be very solid advice for Texas hold ‘em. However, although bluffing, in my humble opinion, is an integral part of the game, a little bluffing goes a long way when playing Omaha-8. [ QUOTE ] The key is to mix up your game.... [/ QUOTE ] I do agree you should “mix up your game.” [ QUOTE ] .... and to get your money in when you have the best of it. [/ QUOTE ] That platitude does sound good. How could it be wrong? Yet I think it misses the mark. I think you can do better with strong starting hands in Omaha-8 than basically blurting out what you have been dealt. The starting post for this thread has to do with small blind play. I see three different approaches when you are dealt A2XX in the small blind. (1) You can raise, but then to disguise your play, you also have to raise with other hands that may not merit raises. (2) You can save your move for later in the hand. (3) You can raise or not depending on what effect your pre-flop raise will have on the play in later rounds of a particular targeted opponent or group of opponents. You will (obviously) get more money in the pot from all the limpers on the first betting round when you raise from the small blind with A2XX. And maybe you’ll get more money from the big blind too. But unless you’re raising with other hands, you’re telegraphing your cards. It’s going to be quickly obvious to decent players in the game whether or not you’re doing that. [ QUOTE ] ......... I'm just offering up a different point of view. [/ QUOTE ] Yads - I very much appreciate your point of view. Disagreeing with it doesn’t mean not appreciating and respecting it. Buzz
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
