how is position so important?

[greatwhite]

In this game position is suppose to be important. If it is that important how come there are no books that say how to play each hand in each position like Skalansky does in his other books. All I hear is general tips for starting hands. I am looking for advanced strategy. Someone please help me.

[grandgnu]

Position is important because you can either build a bigger pot, or drive people out/narrow the field.

If you have a hand like A/A/K/10 double-suited in Omaha hi/lo, you really want to narrow the field.

If you have A/A/2/3 but you're first to act, raising is stupid, the more people in the pot, the better, so you just limp.

If you're last to act with A/A/2/3 THEN you want to raise and build a bigger pot.

Also, some hands may be playable from if the pot is unraised and you're in late position (something like 9/10/J/Q) but if you're first to act it's best to dump this hand, since it will be hard for you to call any raises with this hand.

Good luck, hope this helps. Don't forget I now receive 15% of all your earnings, but assume none of your debts.

[stud7champ]

Position is amongst the top 3 issues in O8. both early and late position are important.
From early position you have to limp in with A2 and consider raising with A2 3-5. Your choice of options is less. However with orphan pots where everyone seems to be checking a raise shorthanded can win the pot.
In late position you have much more information for instance after the turn a check by an opponents often means the card has not helped them which allows you to raise to knock out more players or all players. conversely heavy action before you can indicate premium cards or an opponent hitting a key card allowing you to muck your weak hand or flat call or reraise your nut hand. There is nothing like having the low and straight with a redraw to the nut flush, being in late position and manipulating the size of the pot.
In late position with at least 3 callers you can raise with A2 and A2 3-5 to get more into the pot without losing too many players as they have already invested in the pot.
In a nut shell you play early postion less aggresively than late position. In late position you can also play more hands, even speculate hands such as 234X and A4 suited. provided there are no raises before you.

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If you have A/A/2/3 but you're first to act, raising is stupid, the more people in the pot, the better, so you just limp.

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You are risking the wrath of Ribbo.

[grandgnu]

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If you have A/A/2/3 but you're first to act, raising is stupid, the more people in the pot, the better, so you just limp.

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You are risking the wrath of Ribbo.

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Not quite sure what you mean? If I can get 5-7 people to limp in, that's fine with me, I don't want to push anyone out of the pot in this situation. If I'm in LP then I'll raise to build the pot, because most are going to invest the additional bet after limping in already.

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If you have A/A/2/3 but you're first to act, raising is stupid, the more people in the pot, the better, so you just limp.

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You are risking the wrath of Ribbo.

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Not quite sure what you mean? If I can get 5-7 people to limp in, that's fine with me, I don't want to push anyone out of the pot in this situation. If I'm in LP then I'll raise to build the pot, because most are going to invest the additional bet after limping in already.

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Search back for Ribbo's posts in response to the notion of limping with something like A-A-2-3 and you'll see what I mean.

[Mendacious]

Frankly, I think Omaha/8 position is less relevant than Hold-em. Also I think it is arguably less relevant in PL than in Limit Omaha/8. Stealing opportunities and continuation bets are much less a part of Omaha/8 than in Hold-em. PL08 is much more about nut hands, scoops and 3/4s heads up, than pot-building.

[Wintermute]

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Frankly, I think Omaha/8 position is less relevant than Hold-em.

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only in limit games, but you're partly right here.

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Also I think it is arguably less relevant in PL than in Limit Omaha/8.

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Couldn't be more wrong.

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Stealing opportunities and continuation bets are much less a part of Omaha/8 than in Hold-em.

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not true for PLO8. good players are aggressive on the flop with steal/continuation bets.

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PL08 is much more about nut hands, scoops and 3/4s heads up, than pot-building.

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wrong. position is critical in PLO8. Not as important as starting hands IMO, but still very important. For example, being in position is crucial when trying to get paid off with a good hand, build a pot, or determine your best preflop play, and being out of position is occasionally a blessing in that you can be the first to bluff into a board that misses everybody. These are just a couple of examples, but saying position isn't important in PLO8 is plain wrong.

[gergery]

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Frankly, I think Omaha/8 position is less relevant than Hold-em. Also I think it is arguably less relevant in PL than in Limit Omaha/8.

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Position will always be more important in games where you can bet larger amounts of people's stacks

--greg

[Mendacious]

I never said position was not important.
Clearly post flop position is quite important in how you play the hand.

As for whether it is more important in PL08 or Limit 08, I think there are a few factors to consider.
For pot building, I think position is more important in limit-- by far, for Pot stealing, I think position if more important in PL, but not by as much as you might think.

I'm curious Gergely and Wintermute, do you track winnings by position in Limit08 and PLO8, and if so, what do your stats tell you about how important position is? Over 25,000 hands, my PLO stats do not reflect that being on the button is much of an advantage-- as opposed to NL holdem where it is HUGE. But this might be more of a reflection on my play than anything else.

My experience is that at the limits up to $200 for PLO8, there are FAR fewer pre-flop raises than in Hold-em, so at least for me-- with a slightly >25 VPIP-- I see more hands at the SB and BB than an other seat.

Are your starting requirements THAT different by position in PL08?