when to fold unimproved, non-drawing AK, AQ, AJ

[giddyup]

I've been wondering about a common situation I find at 5/10 6 max at Party. When I raise with AK, AQ, AJ in any position and get called by unknowns, and then miss an uncoordinated flop. I almost always either bet out, or bet when checked to. I am interested in how often i should call down against unknowns when raised on the turn with an uncoordinated board. I'm talking about hands where pot odds do not justify calling down, but folding the best hand is a good possibility as well. Is there a consensus that these hands should be folded against a turn raise or that the possibility of having the best hand justifies calling down? I realize that without a read it is difficult, but in general what do people think is the most profitable play?

[brian94709]

I have a hard time with this sort of thing too.

Im trying the following out right now: (this is for HU situations). I bet the flop, and then I bet the turn only if I either improve, or pick up any extra draw, like a gutshot. Otherwise I just check, and fold if bet into. To discourage ppl from making the turn bet, Ill also check raise the turn with a made hand on occassion.

I dont know how good a plan this is. But at least it gives me something concrete to go with for a "standard line".

[Guy McSucker]

Turn raises at $5/10 tend to mean something. Unimproved AK/AQ/AJ is losing unless you have a read, so you can let it go.

More tricky I find is deciding whether to bet the turn or not. A large class of Party players will call a preflop raise with just about anything and call the flop bet as automatically as you make it. These guys often give up on the turn so a bet is often a good plan to charge their live six outer.

Others don't call the flop without some kind of hit and then you can check it.

Guy.

[Roy6]

I might be paranoid, but I think there are a lot of guys who call with nothing on a low flop just to check-raise you on the turn if another brick falls. Playing KQo unimproved against these guys are really a pain. My big loser hand.

I'm currently thinking of checking the turn against them with KQ, calling a bet and betting out on the river when it's A, K or Q.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

I might be paranoid, but I think there are a lot of guys who call with nothing on a low flop just to check-raise you on the turn if another brick falls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are paranoid. Just fold.

Krishan

[cartman]

If you bet the flop and get called by two or more opponents in this situation, I think you need to usually just check the turn and call if you have the odds to continue. It is very rare for two or more opponents to call the flop and both of them fold on the turn.

Heads up in most cases you should bet again on the turn, but calling a raise on the turn with these hands is insane at 5/10. If you are facing a confirmed turn bluff-raiser, then consider checking behind him and calling his automatic bet on the river with Ace high. Out of position, consider check calling the turn and the river. If you use this line much, though, I think you will have to camouflage it by often checkraising the turn with your real hands. Until you have caught a player bluff-raising the turn without a pair, however, I think you need to bet the turn and fold to a raise. Betting the turn and calling a raise and a river bet is a BIG mistake in my opinion. Until proven otherwise, if you assumed every turn raise out of an unknown opponent is at least top pair you wouldn't be going very far wrong.

Cartman

[cartman]

I think it is probably a mistake to bet the turn against two or more opponents even if you do pick up a draw. I think your standard line should be to just check and call if you think you have the odds to continue.

Heads up, I think you must usually bet again on the turn (and normally fold to a raise) even if you didn't pick up a draw. Against a typical opponent, I usually only check the turn if the flop had an Ace, if the flop had two broadway cards, or if a third flush card hits on the turn.

Cartman

[TJD]

[ QUOTE ]
turn raise out of an unknown opponent is at least top pair you wouldn't be going very far wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would be correct 76 times in 100 against the "average" 5/10 player.

Of course individuals vary from virtually 0 to 50% + [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


T