An observation regarding the 33s

[45suited]

I have just recently started playing the 33s, so this is based on a small sample size. But I have found one thing that really jumps out at me and I'd like to find out if I'm way off base.

When I played the 11s and 22s, one of the most profitable things for me to do was simply bet for value. The players were very loose pre-flop and could not evaluate the strength of their hands post-flop. Simply betting for value and letting them call you down with bottom pair or some crazy backdoor draw (or ace high) would get the job done.

At the 33s, I've noticed a couple changes in the general play. (I've had the benefit of single tabling for a while since I moved up. Just trying to get comfortable.) The pre-flop play seems much more sane. Nobody calling an all in pre-flop in level 1 with QJs or whatever. But here's the striking difference: Playing my good hands from behind, check-raising or check-calling, so far has been a gold mine. It seems like so many of these guys can't resist calling your pre-flop raises (with position) just to make a play on you. (They don't seem to take into account that I haven't played a hand for 3 orbits before making my raise.) So anyway, what I've noticed so far is that the big difference seems to be that against alot of these guys, they just cannot resist the temptation to make a move on you if you show any kind of weakness. Obviously there are coordinated boards where you would not dare do this, but my question is, is this the general trend as you move up in buy-ins? It seems like the money is made on the lowest levels by simply value betting, but so far, I've stacked a bunch of guys simply by checking top pair. I can't believe the absolute garbage that they are pushing when I check. It seems like the players on the 33s are (obviously) generally better than the 11s and 22s, but some of them seem to know just enough to get themselves into a world of trouble if they are playing against people who have even the slightest observational skills.

Maybe my observations are not valid due to sample size. Any opinions on this subject would be welcomed.

[downtown]

I've only played a few hundred 33s, but the longer I play them, the less credit I give the players. Whether this is to my benefit or not, I don't know. I think that you are right on that the main difference is that you get 1 less stupid all in with middle pair, 67s level 1 player. The players are generally *slightly* more aware and there are more multitablers and players you'll run across more often. Otherwise, players are generally tighter, but weak-tighter. I think they'll make more plays than the 11s, but be really careful check/calling down with top pair (not saying that you were, just addressing that part of your post.) The best part about 33s? My anecdotal experience is that calling ranges are also tighter around the bubble. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] See you in the 33s if I haven't already!

[45suited]

Thanks for your input.

Just to be clear, I wasn't talking about passively check calling down in the early levels. More like in the mid to late stages, I'm willing to check / call a push (cuz I expect them to push so often after I check) with TP or even less. Also, I agree with you that they seem to be easier to steal against on the bubble.

I know that there are alot of pros on the 33s (I remember reading a year or more ago that this was the case), but overall, the play has not been as big a jump in skill as I was expecting.

It also helps that I haven't gone through the inevitable "get sucked out on in 5 straight games" streak up to this point. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[BadMongo]

I think in gerneral this kind of thing is more opponent dependent that buy-in dependent. There are players who will do this at the 22s for instance, you just have to figure out who they are and play accordingly. I do agree that there are more of these "tricky" types at the 33s and up, though. I just wouldn't try too generallize too much. Value betting is still your main weapon at the 33s, IMHO.

[tigerite]

And there are also players at the $33s who are absolutely dreadful, you see usually at least 1 or 2 per tourney who haven't got a clue.

[Hornacek]

I think the biggest difference is from $55 -> $109, then $33 -> $55.

Then again, I haven't ventured to the $215 game, so voila.

[Slim Pickens]

After about 400 33's, I've found the banlance of players is only slightly different than the 22's. There's maybe 2 rake-beaters (including me [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]), 4 decent break-even players, 2 modest losers, and 2 total donks. There might be 3 total donks at the 22's and 4-5 at the 11's, with the balance taken out of the other categories equally. This means there are fewer hands to collect the free chips early on (although my first-hand push with AA over two limpers got called by 44), and tougher bubble play. There's a lot of FPS in the 33's compared to the 22's. I think you're right about check-calling later on with as little as middle pair. That kind of thing is highly read-dependent though.

[Ixnert]

My experiences moving up to the 33s over the last week or two align more or less with yours. More players who know just enough to make a move, but not enough to know when, how to camoflage them, or how to make it less than blatantly obvious that they're very proud of the moves they make. Which makes it fairly easy to identify and target them.

I don't know that I'd say it's the majority of players at this level, but there are usually one or two reliably at each table. They seem to mostly displace the truly terrible couple of players I expected to find at any given 22, not seeing nearly as many of those.

[The Don]

Value betting is definetly your best weapon. When I get check raised it is normally very obvious that I am beat. When I come over the top of a suspected continuation bet it is way harder for me to get away (Brunson in Super System 1 etc...). I am a player like the ones you describe who calls a lot of raises when I sense weakness. This is the advantage of the 33s... the play is way weaker (smarter but weaker). I certainly use more discretion than the players you describe, however. Even when 8 tabling it is pretty obvious when a tight player (noted or observed) opens from EP or MP that he has something big.

I also like the bubble play better in the 33s than in the 22s.