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  #31  
Old 12-09-2005, 05:56 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: Iran

[ QUOTE ]
this is a very strange view on hte matter. Every nation has the rightto develop their technology in any way they see fit. It is not the job of the Israelis to decide if Iran should or should not have a certain technology. The very idea that people think they should is part of the reason people hate Israel.


Iran should be able to keep their own nuclear arsenal for the same reason every other nation has one, self defense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree: I don't think totalitarian, tyrannical governments should have that right. Nor do I trust them to not employ first-strike. However, I do think that democratic-style constitutional republics have that right, and I think they are far more worthy of trust not to use nuclear weapons in a first-strike attack.

All forms of government are not created equal. Totalitarian governments, or radical, unstable regimes should have no rights to possess doomsday weapons--and the world would be foolish to trust them with such devices.
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  #32  
Old 12-09-2005, 06:01 PM
jba jba is offline
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Default Re: Iran

M,

thanks, just curious because of the sworn mortal enemies bit.

No doubt it is an issue of paramount importance, but I believe it to be a much more dire situation for Israel's national interests than it is ours. The existence of Israel in many ways depends on iran not developing nuclear weapons, but I dont think they can threaten the existence of the US in any meaningful way. That fact and the current weakness of our government wrt foreign policy especially in the mideast, leads me to believe that it's gonna be isreal that carries the burden of actually doing something on this one. but who knows.

anybody who doesn't realize how terrible it is for Iran to have these weapons, given the tension in the region, their ambitions re: israel/palestine, and the instability of the iranian government is seriously misguided. It isn't necessarily the ayatollahs acting on behest of Iran that is the biggest concern.
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  #33  
Old 12-09-2005, 06:02 PM
superleeds superleeds is offline
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Default Re: Iran

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree: I don't think totalitarian, tyrannical governments should have that right

[/ QUOTE ]

Tough. It ain't rocket science anymore.
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  #34  
Old 12-09-2005, 06:07 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: Iran

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No doubt it is an issue of paramount importance, but I believe it to be a much more dire situation for Israel's national interests than it is ours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely.

[ QUOTE ]
That fact and the current weakness of our government wrt foreign policy especially in the mideast, leads me to believe that it's gonna be isreal that carries the burden of actually doing something on this one. but who knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

Israel might well have to do something, but Israeli capabilities for airstikes in Iran are somewhat limited, due to their planes, bases/fueling matters, and the long distances involved.



[ QUOTE ]
anybody who doesn't realize how terrible it is for Iran to have these weapons, given the tension in the region, their ambitions re: israel/palestine, and the instability of the iranian government is seriously misguided. It isn't necessarily the ayatollahs acting on behest of Iran that is the biggest concern.

[/ QUOTE ]

True.
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  #35  
Old 12-09-2005, 06:55 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Iran

[ QUOTE ]
Every nation has the rightto develop their technology in any way they see fit. It is not the job of the Israelis to decide if Iran should or should not have a certain technology.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, and you have the right to step into traffic too, but it's not very wise. Same thing for Iran developing nuclear weapons, because there will be consequences the opposite of what those weapons are supposed to provide.

Plus the whole key here is that they are the ones making statements about wiping out Israel, not the other way around. So that forfeits any moral rights they might have to develop such weapons.

And all you type of lib apologizers for the politically correct view that "all nations have the right to do this and that and not just the superpowers", would be the same ones crying about the threat of nuclear weapons if we were still in cold war mode vis a vis Russia, and how we need to reduce our weapons stockpiles like we have. But now it's perfectly correct for every piss-ant small nation to have nukes cause "it's their right!".
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  #36  
Old 12-09-2005, 09:06 PM
ACPlayer ACPlayer is offline
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Default Re: Iran

Work to establish bilateral trade between Iran and the US. Drop idiotic rhetoric like "axis of evil". Establish normal relations with Iran --- I would love to go visit Iran for a month or two.
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  #37  
Old 12-09-2005, 09:12 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: Iran

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree: I don't think totalitarian, tyrannical governments should have that right

[/ QUOTE ].



Tough. It ain't rocket science anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, Superleeds: do YOU think that totalitarian, tyrannical governments should have the right to possess doomsday weapons? Weatherman seemed to think that such regimes have as much right as any other country to have them. Do you agree with him?
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  #38  
Old 12-09-2005, 09:29 PM
ACPlayer ACPlayer is offline
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Default Re: Iran

The country that "controls" the right for another to do anything (including producing nukes) is the totalitarian regime.

There is no "right" to own these weapons. There is a right to self defense. Iran rightly fears for its survival (from Israel for the wrong reasons from US because of our rhetoric). We must remove the reaoson to fear for it to fear for its survival.

A MAD policy between Iran and Israel suits us (and me) just fine. A one sided balance of power in the middle east is detrimental to the US.
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  #39  
Old 12-09-2005, 09:51 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: Iran

[ QUOTE ]
The country that "controls" the right for another to do anything (including producing nukes) is the totalitarian regime.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. Totalitarianism is a style and measure of internal governance, not the specifics of international matters. Iran is a totalitarian regime and the US is not, REGARDLESS of which may dictate to the other side which weapons can be held.

[ QUOTE ]
There is no "right" to own these weapons. There is a right to self defense. Iran rightly fears for its survival (from Israel for the wrong reasons from US because of our rhetoric). We must remove the reaoson to fear for it to fear for its survival.

[/ QUOTE ]

ACPlayer, you are now deliberately trolling, as you positively KNOW Iran has nothing to fear from Israel (provided Iran is not aggressive or overly threatening towards Israel). The converse, however, is dubious at best, especially in light of Iran's recent highly threatening rhetoric.

[ QUOTE ]
A MAD policy between Iran and Israel suits us (and me) just fine. A one sided balance of power in the middle east is detrimental to the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

One-sided power is by far the best way if the democratic, constitutionally protected side holds the trump cards and the despotic regimes hold the 7-2 offsuit. The good guys "should" have the power, and the totalitarian despots little or none. OBVIOUSLY.

Also, the more power the U.S. and Israel have in the Middle East, and the less power the totalitarian and religio-fascist regimes hold, the better. Moreover, the more power we hold, and the less power our enemies hold, the better.
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  #40  
Old 12-09-2005, 10:07 PM
ACPlayer ACPlayer is offline
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Default Re: Iran

[ QUOTE ]
ACPlayer, you are now deliberately trolling, as you positively KNOW Iran has nothing to fear from Israel (provided Iran is not aggressive or overly threatening towards Israel).

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think this is trolling. Iran has a very definite fear of Israel, specially when viewing the recent activities in Iraq. The Israel puppet -- America -- invades Iraq in support of the Israeli position (this is the one interpretation of how Iran sees Israel and America -- not an unreasonable one from their point of view). It further notes that America continues to make noises for the past five years about regime change in Iran -- of course the Mullahs see the hand of Israel in these policies.

If you look at this as the head of state for Iran (whether that head of state is totalitarian or not is irrelevant) you see Israel as a definte threat. Remember in poker you have to consider what the other guy thinks of your hand and not what you know about your hand.

The muslim world in the middle east (specially) views America as a puppet mindlessly supporting the expansionist Israel policy and willing to use its military power to support that expansion.

This is as it is -- not trolling.

[ QUOTE ]
One-sided power is by far the best way if the democratic, constitutionally protected side holds the trump cards and the despotic regimes hold the 7-2 offsuit. The good guys "should" have the power, and the totalitarian despots little or none. OBVIOUSLY.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. We should not care what Israel holds and what Iran holds. We should care how Israel and Iran view us and manipulate our image so that both parties have a vested interest in solid relations with us. As you know, I give a rats ass, whether the government is totalitarian or not. I believe we should establish relations and work within the context of bilateral trade to "liberate" the people.

As you pointed out ina previous threat Hezbollah can be a threat to us IF WE THREATEN THEM. Iran can be a threat to us if WE CONTINUE TO THREATEN THEM. There is no need to do either.

Nixon went to China, a blatantly totalitarian regime and now we enjoy fine (and some useless trinkets) products made in china at low cost -- while the chinese government continue to oppress some of their people. This is the type of relationship that works.
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