My Experiences - Are They Normal?

[Lexander]

I am curious what other NL players are seeing.

First, I confine myself purely to $25 NL at Party right now. I have played some of the penny stakes at UB, but that game is so easy to beat it isn't even funny (not very profitable, but it does add up).

I am seeing some interesting things, some of which I find concerning, others which I see as fairly logical. But I am curious if these experiences are the same for other NL players.

#1) A good deal of my winnings have come from people playing bad kickers. A few of my big losses come from playing a bad kicker (one truly bad play in particular sticks in my mind).

#2) Overplaying AA-JJ seems to be a common mistake. In general, I have won a great deal of money by people misplaying these hands. What I am noticing is that if you slowplay them preflop too hard, you only get called by people that have you beat you on the flop if you start attacking. My general strategy in EP is to slowplay the hand and react to a raiser. I do find that if I let a lot of people in post-flop, I have to be careful about anybody catching the hand. I don't slowplay in other positions anymore.

#3) I am struggling to determine how to play hand such as A7s. The kicker issue is huge, and good players will raise me hard to take away pot odds if the flush is a draw. I am 'feeling' my way through these hands. Typically, these hands are a problem against good players and easy money against weak ones.

Are these normal in your game of NL? How much of this is just the weak play at this level and how much reflects some of the fundamental differences in NL?

Honestly, my short term results in this game have been very good. I often end up all-in against opponents when I have the clear advantage, and though I get outdrawn the generally correct amount of time I often end up way ahead. Some of the plays I am not completely sure about that have worked out, and I don't intend to raise the stakes anytime soon.

- Lex

[illmatic]

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#1) A good deal of my winnings have come from people playing bad kickers. A few of my big losses come from playing a bad kicker (one truly bad play in particular sticks in my mind).

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This is true, in my experience. If you have AQ or AJ and the Q or J fall, bet it decent. Even KQ or QJ are money makers if the table is very loose. I tend to be careful at times with this if the table is extremely loose though, because you will get many chasers that may hit their set or make two pair on the river. Then you face a big bet on the river and may not be sure what to do. So if the table is very loose, I might bet it a bit weaker. That sounds wrong, but TPTK is a small pot winner and I don't need to make it into a big pot winner (or, worse, a big pot loser). You will probably have to fold facing an all in bet on the river with TPTK against a few players to act, unless you have a real good read.

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#2) Overplaying AA-JJ seems to be a common mistake. In general, I have won a great deal of money by people misplaying these hands. What I am noticing is that if you slowplay them preflop too hard, you only get called by people that have you beat you on the flop if you start attacking. My general strategy in EP is to slowplay the hand and react to a raiser. I do find that if I let a lot of people in post-flop, I have to be careful about anybody catching the hand. I don't slowplay in other positions anymore.

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People do this all the time. I don't slowplay AA much, if ever. I may limp if there is a very very tight table and I really want to play poker instead of coming back or going somewhere else to play. The reason is, you are not saying you are strong, so if someone plays back, you don't know if they are really strong or just sort of strong. You limp in EP with AA and the board comes KT6o. You bet decent and get raised. What do you do? Do you really lay down AA here? You might easily be up against AK, or even KQ, instead of KT or 66. QJ might raise you here since you didn't show strength pre-flop. So you're stuck facing a turn and river bet and not knowing if you are badly beat or well ahead.

If you raise AA there, even a min or a little bit, and then you bet and get raised, now you know you are looking at some kind of strength and you might lay down depending on the opponent.

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#3) I am struggling to determine how to play hand such as A7s. The kicker issue is huge, and good players will raise me hard to take away pot odds if the flush is a draw. I am 'feeling' my way through these hands. Typically, these hands are a problem against good players and easy money against weak ones.

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You are playing A7s for the flush in NL. In NL you are going after stacks, not pots. Try and get hands that will get you a stack. A7 and you hit the A on the board will get you a small pot. Be happy with that small pot, that's what you're entitled to with a pair of aces and a 7 kicker. It's not supposed to get you someone's stack (or have you lose your stack). In EP, I might even check A7 on an A high flop. If someone with values bets, I might likely fold, or if I think it's a steal, play appropriately. I don't bet that hand, generally.

Sounds like you bet the flush draw early. I don't think that's always a good idea. Sure you might get that pot, but you're opening yourself to a raise by an A with a better kicker (as you've seen). Also, you're cutting down the number of callers. Nut flush draw is a possible bust someone hand and you want as many possible people in the pot as you can have. I might bet it late to get the free card, or throw people off when the flush hits and I bet.

I see a lot of my own experience in your post, these are problems I worked through in my own game (and am continuing to work on).

later,
illmatic

[crockpot]

1 - this is especially true on party. top pair, top kicker is a trouble hand at deep no-limit play where you can have something like 200 big blinds in front of you, but when you can only have 50, it is a hand worth moving in on the flop if it was raised preflop. and on party you will often see someone calling you with less.

2 - misplaying jacks is a lot more common than misplaying aces, even though the latter is a problem among newbies. people don't seem to realize that jacks are a very vulnerable hand when an overcard flops and someone keeps betting.

3 - on party i wouldn't even play this hand unless i could limp in very late position. the 50xBB stacks don't give you enough implied odds to play it in early position or for a raise.

why not play the .10/.25 NL on UB? the players are a little better, but the deeper money makes more hands playable and should help your profits.

[Moonsugar]

In your response to #2 regarding limping with AA:

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I may limp if there is a very very tight table and I really want to play poker instead of coming back or going somewhere else to play. The reason is, you are not saying you are strong, so if someone plays back, you don't know if they are really strong or just sort of strong.

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I assume you mean if there is no raise preflop and the guy is playing back after the flop. If there is a raise preflop you should put in a big reraise. Then you should have better info or win it right there. I think open limping with AA at an aggressive table is a nice move. At a passive table it is not a good strategy for the reasons you outlined.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Axs is sometimes worth a limp, and others worth a fold. It's never worth any raise, and even if you've limped, anything but a stupid meaningless minimum raise should send you packing without question. It's a good hand for limit, but a very bad one for no limit. Flushes just don't get paid off very much in no limit, because they are so obvious, which takes away their value. Flopping an ace sux, because you could lose a bundle to a better kicker, as you know. Really unless you flop two pair or trips, it's just a good way to get broke by putting your faith in small aces.

The morons on party will call very large raises preflop with nothing, so why wait till the flop when they won't call unless they have something? Raise with your AA - JJ, and raise BIG.

al