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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 01:21 AM
derk derk is offline
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Default Tells and Patterns

I feel one big thing that helps begginers like myself out is know tells and how to use them. So I'm starting this thread to share information I know about tells and I hope everyone adds on.

1. Staring at you - a person who stare at u after the flop is usually just trying to look tough and get u not to bet.

2. Betting patterns can be huge tells - If the table has checked it all the way to the river and then on the river someone in late position decides to raise a hefty amount u need to reveiw the moard and I've found most likely the are just looking for a steal

That's it for now, please everyone keep adding on. thanks.

P.S. - anyone know anything about facial twitches, or expressions?
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 01:29 AM
masse75 masse75 is offline
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Default Re: Tells and Patterns

I played a blind guy once and his seeing eye dog would lick his balls every time he flopped 2-pair or better.
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 01:45 AM
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Default Re: Tells and Patterns

Hey I had to clean my screen from the unnecessary spray and I lost a hand to boot.

derk, your observations are well taken and I am certain your thoughts are well intended. It seems this group has a rather advanced mindset for beginners which is a good thing.

Hold down the funnies aheravi, im running out of paper towels and windex. LOL

Monty
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2005, 02:17 AM
AKQJ10 AKQJ10 is offline
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Default Re: Tells and Patterns

[ QUOTE ]
1. Staring at you - a person who stare at u after the flop is usually just trying to look tough and get u not to bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that this is a special case of strong-means-weak. I don't own Caro's book but I gather this single theme, strong means weak and weak means strong, is his greatest contribution to the field of reading tells.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:01 AM
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Default Re: Tells and Patterns

I agree and will add this.

Money saved is money earned (concept) was stolen from Bennie Franklin. It may not be a tell but it sure applies to five and dime.

As for shaking this is a behavior exhibited by players who hold the nuts as they gently collect the chips making the bet.

When in a B&M ring I have seen this faked on numerous times which is why I prefer to watch the waitress.

All kidding aside, my feelings about tells with unknown players is don't believe it unless its a thumping juglar or other things which can't be faked so easily.

My mindset tells me to watch how all of the players play, all the time, and pick up on the little things like what a fold threshold is for a player with a marginal hand. In a since this is a huge tell.

In a home game it might be a new deck which appears to have been tampered with before it is opened. Love it when I catch those and I have caught a couple over the years. An unnamed frat house was the last to get caught and not revealed (might want to go back some day). It was not a good juice deck to begin with and I do know how to read most of them.

Paying attention to the unfaked produces far more than getting trapped by a show.

Monty
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:53 AM
SheridanCat SheridanCat is offline
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Default Re: Tells and Patterns

[ QUOTE ]
I feel one big thing that helps begginers like myself out is know tells and how to use them.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have to actually disagree with you here (except as noted below). I really don't think trying to recognize tells is all that useful for most players. Perhaps you might find one helpful in a close situation, but rarely will they be a determining factor in whether you're a winner or a loser.

That said...

[ QUOTE ]

1. Staring at you - a person who stare at u after the flop is usually just trying to look tough and get u not to bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, classic strong = weak. Or, it could just be that the guy watches a lot of poker on TV and thinks that's what you do.

[ QUOTE ]

2. Betting patterns can be huge tells


[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't put betting patterns in the same bucket as tells. Betting patterns are integral to the game, while tells are physical actions by an opponent that give you indications of his strength/weakness. If you read the definitive work on tells, Caro's Book of Poker Tells, you'll see that he doesn't address betting patterns. The manner in which a bet is made is treated, but he doesn't talk about coming up with hand ranges based on betting patterns themselves.

In my opinion, betting patterns are probably the most important thing a beginner needs to understand in trying to read hands. In that we agree. But they're not tells.

[ QUOTE ]

P.S. - anyone know anything about facial twitches, or expressions?


[/ QUOTE ]

These types of "tells" are the least useful, in my opinion. They could mean anything, usually. And if you see them, there's a pretty good chance they fall into the strong=weak/weak=strong category of tells.

Remember that any tell you pick up may or may not be a real tell. The person in question may just act differently than most people or she may have read Caro's book and knows how to toss off a fake tell now and again.

Anyone interested in the subject should read Caro's book. It gives a much more comprehensive treatment than we can possibly give the topic here. However, do not take seriously the dollar values that Caro gives to the tells he talks about. I don't know why he bothered to do that, as it's total poppycock.

Regards,

T
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 01:34 PM
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Default Re: Tells and Patterns

Caro has also put out a series of video CD's on tells. There are approx 5 cd's, and are available pretty cheaply, I think I spent around $20 for the bunch. They are helpful, because you can actually see the tell he's addressing, which in my case helps me identify it later. I agree with many of the responses here tho, tells are probably more useful to the expert player, where as betting patterns are more useful to beginners and intermediate players. Good luck.
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: Tells and Patterns

Here is the danger of reading tells. I have a tendency to get hand shakes when I have a really strong hand early in a game with unknown players. Nothing I have tried stops this. Once I relax and get more information on my opponents it goes away. I also have a damaged nerve in my left hand than causes it to shake any time I do things that require dexterity in my fingers such as seperating chips.

These things tend to work to my advantage in two ways. First, I stop getting the shakes about the time most players pick up on the fact it means I have a strong hand and they are more likely to put money in the pot because they don't see me shaking. Second, I can use my left hand to put money in the pot when I bluff. People see the shaking hand and usually fold thinking I have a monster. Obviously, someone who is really keen will notice which hand I use to bluff but most players at my limits don't pick up on it.
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:50 PM
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Default Re: Tells and Patterns

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

2. Betting patterns can be huge tells


[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't put betting patterns in the same bucket as tells. Betting patterns are integral to the game, while tells are physical actions by an opponent that give you indications of his strength/weakness. If you read the definitive work on tells, Caro's Book of Poker Tells, you'll see that he doesn't address betting patterns. The manner in which a bet is made is treated, but he doesn't talk about coming up with hand ranges based on betting patterns themselves.

In my opinion, betting patterns are probably the most important thing a beginner needs to understand in trying to read hands. In that we agree. But they're not tells.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with one exception and that is fold thresholds of a drawing weak hand. From experience I have noted that many players will continue those same patterns when they have a weak drawing hand. Certainly it makes no since to bet out or even call holding a weak drawing hand. For example many players will toss low pairs if the pre-flop bet is large. They will also many times toss them if the flop didn't yield good results in their favor and someone bets out. This is why you want to make those players pay to see the cards on the board. So betting threshold to induce a fold from any given player I still see as a tell of sorts. It tells me where to limit my bet for results when that player is weak and conserves my cash in the event I don't improve or hold the absolute nuts.

Now I think of micro stakes games and have to acknowledge the fact that almost any bet you make will be a value bet since elimination bets usually do not work well at those stakes. You bet and the fish come running.

This also is an area I have seen faked by a player throwing in a nice call and folding so as to mislead. The point I am trying to approach here is the overall trend of the player and not just an ocassional observation.

I can actually see your side as well on this Sheridan, so maybe this is a player perception issue for me and you are right. In either case this has vastly helped my game.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

P.S. - anyone know anything about facial twitches, or expressions?


[/ QUOTE ]

These types of "tells" are the least useful, in my opinion. They could mean anything, usually. And if you see them, there's a pretty good chance they fall into the strong=weak/weak=strong category of tells.


[/ QUOTE ]

I said in a later post here to watch out for fakes unless it is something which cannot be controlled and then mentioned a throbing juglar. Even that can as Sheridan points out be the result of other influences and not allways the cards.

You will be far better off paying attention to the game instead of someones OREO (tell). LOL had to throw that cookie in, it is a good movie.

Monty
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  #10  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:56 PM
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Default Re: Tells and Patterns

I like this one :

When a player is yet to act and looks at his chips, he's hit the flop and is thinking about a bet. Most people will do this subconciously.

or :

when the flop lands three to a colour, and a player takes another look at his hand, he didn't make the flush (although he may have one card).

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I think the obvious one are the most reliable.
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