KK vs a calling station

[Str8Fish]

This is from absolute so I had to do the conversion on my own here. Button is a calling station. UTG+1 is a fish. Is there any point where I should have stopped betting?

Absolute 1/2 LHE

Hero is UTG+2 preflop with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Preflop: 1 fold, UTG+1 limps, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, EP2 calls (8.5 SB)

Flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls. (11.5 SB)

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, UTG+1 folds. (7.75BB)

River: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero bets, Button calls (9.75BB)

I like

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Button is a calling station. UTG+1 is a fish. Is there any point where I should have stopped betting?

[/ QUOTE ]

I probably would have checked the turn, hoping to see a free river/get a free showdown. Depending on what you mean by "fish" would have determined my action if bet into on a blank river.

Bozlax,
I'm surprised you would have let up on the turn. I guess fish can mean "plays Ax" or "chases BD draws." If it is the former then yea maybe, let up on the turn and see who comes out on the river, but if it is the latter you are letting him get a free card to the BD flush.

[DCWildcat]

If you're against a loose/passive and a calling station, not betting every street is bad. Yes, you'll lose to Arag, but you'll beat any Q and any PP, which more than makes up for that.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Bozlax,
I'm surprised you would have let up on the turn. I guess fish can mean "plays Ax" or "chases BD draws." If it is the former then yea maybe, let up on the turn and see who comes out on the river, but if it is the latter you are letting him get a free card to the BD flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm also giving a free card to small pps, the gutshot wheel, and any number of other hands. Why? Because based on the read, none of them are going to give up here for one more bet.

What is more likely, that one of them is playing Ax (or have us drawing dead to some combo of 43) or that one of them has one of the many draws that might beat us on the river? If you can answer that question, then you've got a better read than the OP. For all intents and purposes, once you're called by two of them on the flop, you're WA/WB (I know it's not a textbook WA/WB but the concept still applies), so unless there's a read that we weren't given that they're weak-tight enough to fold an ace or a flush draw on the turn, which they didn't fold on the flop, I see little value in keeping the pressure on them.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're against a loose/passive and a calling station, not betting every street is bad. Yes, you'll lose to Arag, but you'll beat any Q and any PP, which more than makes up for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. In the past, DC, I've agreed with this, but I'm starting to draw a distinction between a hand like this where the ace comes on the flop, and a hand where the ace comes on the turn.

Maybe I'm giving the dinks too much credit, but I don't see even the worst players calling a bet from a preflop raiser on an ace-high rainbow flop with anything that we want to keep pumping the pot with. otoh, if the flop was Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and the turn came A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], then, yeah, I'm going to fire again when checked to.

[ QUOTE ]
For all intents and purposes, once you're called by two of them on the flop, you're WA/WB (I know it's not a textbook WA/WB but the concept still applies), so unless there's a read that we weren't given that they're weak-tight enough to fold an ace or a flush draw on the turn, which they didn't fold on the flop, I see little value in keeping the pressure on them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think in this case you are right esp. because it is 3-way.

[ QUOTE ]
otoh, if the flop was Q85 and the turn came A, then, yeah, I'm going to fire again when checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if raised would you fold thinking someone peeled one on the flop to spike his A?

[Frank Zappy]

I was just going to post something similar, that is: there are some people who are simply the Kiss of Death if they're in the pot. They have A when I have KK but they are physically incapable of raising and announcing any strength.

I used to try to CR and bully them off a hand but this is truly spewing chips. They will call down with Ax because that’s what a calling station does.

It’s a question of knowing the players I’m now aware of several who will cause me to check/fold turn and/or river if they’re in the pot.