88 your play?

i like trying to see cheap flops with medium pairs (77, 88, 99) cause if the flop comes paint and aces its easier to release your hand and not make loose calls especially at low limits where people who limp wont fold to a raise just try to hit your set cheap and release it if you dont

[chief444]

That's not exactly true. There are some other factors to consider that have been pointed out. But basically you're expecting to win 8% of the time and you'll win way more than that. You don't automatically lose when you don't flop an 8.

[Redd]

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When you flop your set, you have 3 streets and 5 players to pay you off,

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How is this related to preflop raise?

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Because the bloated pot will be more likely to induce callers when you hit.

Yes, the move is slightly -EV strictly from an equity point of view.

We probably lose something like 0.2 SB or so in EV (these are quick estimates and not at all accurate, but they get the point across), versus calling. But in doing so we get:
1) The possbility of a free flop card. That's a free 5% shot at say 16SBs = 0.05*16 = 0.8SB. I'll reiterate this is a total simplification and doesn't take into account several factors that both increase and decrease this number. But even here, if we get the free card 1 time in 4 (seems likely), we've made our investment back already.
2) The chance to get more bets in when there is a bigger pot. For every player's flop fold in a 6SB pot that becomes a call in a 12SB pot gets us probably about 0.8SB. If we induce turn calls, it's even more profitable.

And this completely neglects the nontrivial number of times that the flop comes ragged undercards and we can play aggressively with our overpair, and our preflop raise did make us money directly.

So for a very small investment preflop, a number of good returns can occur postflop that make us money in the long run.

[djhoneybear]

If raising 88 on the button is correct - how about 77? What about 22? You still get the same action when you flop a set, you still might get a look at a free turn card. I don't see raising with 88 as being that good of a play unless you like to chase a two outer.

[gopnik]

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When you flop your set, you have 3 streets and 5 players to pay you off,

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this related to preflop raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the bloated pot will be more likely to induce callers when you hit.

Yes, the move is slightly -EV strictly from an equity point of view.

We probably lose something like 0.2 SB or so in EV (these are quick estimates and not at all accurate, but they get the point across), versus calling. But in doing so we get:
1) The possbility of a free flop card. That's a free 5% shot at say 16SBs = 0.05*16 = 0.8SB. I'll reiterate this is a total simplification and doesn't take into account several factors that both increase and decrease this number. But even here, if we get the free card 1 time in 4 (seems likely), we've made our investment back already.
2) The chance to get more bets in when there is a bigger pot. For every player's flop fold in a 6SB pot that becomes a call in a 12SB pot gets us probably about 0.8SB. If we induce turn calls, it's even more profitable.

And this completely neglects the nontrivial number of times that the flop comes ragged undercards and we can play aggressively with our overpair, and our preflop raise did make us money directly.

So for a very small investment preflop, a number of good returns can occur postflop that make us money in the long run.

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this is a good explanation and I definitely agree with most of the points here, but one:

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And this completely neglects the nontrivial number of times that the flop comes ragged undercards and we can play aggressively with our overpair, and our preflop raise did make us money directly.

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By bloating the pot preflop you WILL give odds for overs to chaise and you won't be able to protect your overpair no matter how hard you try.

Anyway, good discussion.

[Redd]

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By bloating the pot preflop you WILL give odds for overs to chaise and you won't be able to protect your overpair no matter how hard you try.

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This is a good point, but minor compared to the other EV considerations IMO.

Firstly, this assumes that we never get a chance to face some or all of the field with two bets in the larger pot, so there is a chance to protect here.

Secondly, one of the reasons that this is especially good with the middling pockets is that no one necessarily even has 2 overs. There's still plenty of single overcard hands etc. that can incorrectly call many flops.

Finally, even if there are some hands out there that can draw correctly, we almost always still have an equity edge against them; it would be nice to protect, but we can still profit off of the bets going in on the flop.

[bambi]

Easy raise preflop, and yes you should be raising small pocket pairs, 44 etc in this situation, your implied odds are huge, and dont forget u dont need to flop a set to win, you can also make a straight.

[silkyslim]

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If raising 88 on the button is correct - how about 77? What about 22? You still get the same action when you flop a set, you still might get a look at a free turn card. I don't see raising with 88 as being that good of a play unless you like to chase a two outer.

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lol