Holocaust Denial

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I remember way back in the day my grandfather would write letters to the editor regarding WWII coverage (Remembernce articles and such i guess). He was born in germany moved here and joined our army and went back over to germany and fought for us. every now and then crazy psycho people would look him up in the phone book and call and say the holocaust never happened stop spreading lies etc. These people would claim to be history teachers and all other kinds of stuff. Now my grandfather was as conservative as people come, and he knows it happened, he saw it. So how do these people really think it never happened? Is anyone here informed enough to debate for them? I doubt we have anyone this stupid on here. I cant even fathom how someone can think this. Even the reasons Wikipedia had, seemed rather outlandish. Either way, i just want to know how anyone other then complete and total nazi/moron could belive this.

[PoBoy321]

I never understood holocaust deniers either, especially when it's one of the most well documented events in human history.

[bobman0330]

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Either way, i just want to know how anyone other then complete and total nazi/moron could belive this.

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they can't

[Cyrus]

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How do these people really think it never happened? Is anyone here informed enough to debate for them? I just want to know how anyone other then complete and total nazi/moron could believe this.

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The arguments of the "Holocaust Revisionists" are based mainly on two tenets:

1. There is no explicit Nazi order or decision extant that directly and in no uncertain terms commands the extermination of the Jews. *

2. The number of "Six Million Dead" is arbitrary, unsupported by facts and propagandist.

I have read a lot of the literature put out by Revisionists, eg Butz, Maurisson. Let's deal with their work very quickly here:

EVEN IF THE ABOVE ARE TRUE, we do have a holocaust of Jews by the Nazis and this is evidenced by what has been actually documented (i.e. the ideological manifestos, the actual Nazi treatment of "inferior races",etc). In other words, even if historican never unearth an order directing Jews to be gassed, the totally inhumane, beastly treatment of people by the Nazis (whereby humans were reduced to something inferior than animals), is absolutely equivalent to giving an order to kill.

And even if the "correct" figure turns out to be indeed much less than "Six Million", so what? It is still an absolute holocaust, mass murder on a scale that henceforth renders poetry impossible, as the philosopher mourned.

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My grandfather ... went ... to Germany and fought. He knows it happened, he saw it.

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Your grandpa saw camps. He did not see the plan nor the order for the Jews' extermination. But what he saw (and what we all found out from a distance) is I believe tantamount to organised, pre-planned, systematic murder, i.e. a holocaust.

Please note that the Russian POWs suffered almost as badly as the Jews in WWII, at the hands of the Nazis, and also the Gypsies, and other tribes or "scum" like homosexuals.

--Cyrus
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* The argument of Revisionists goes like this, about the death camps and the gas chambers: The Germans in WWII desperately needed human slave labour. They needed those who were able to work. Therefore, the Nazis would not have been stupid to kill off the labor they needed so much. The people who were put to death were either unable to work or sick. (Note that a typhus epidemic was indeed coming down in the prisons, at the time. This has been documented by Red Cross, among others.) The Revisionists claim that the gassing was done in order to kill safely those infected and fumigate the area at the same time.

[whiskeytown]

ignorance is a powerful thing in the hands of stupid people.

I seem to remember a tv special - (I THINK it was part of the Band of Brothers DVD series) - where Eisenhower ORDERED all his troops to walk thru the camps - He said that someday, they were going to deny this ever happened, and he wanted as many eyewitnesses as possible.

Smart guy, that Eisenhower.

RB

[Darryl_P]

Very impressive!

I can't believe I agree 100% with a Cyrus post and see fair treatment of the facts at hand, especially on such a sensitive issue.

It's good to see America is (still?) the land of free speech. I wish it were the same in Europe. This dude was deported and sentenced to prison for "thought crimes" which consist of nothing more than scientifically questioning the validity of the official version of the holocaust.

As long as racist laws like these in Germany are tolerated there will be no chance for world peace IMO.

[lehighguy]

While I don't agree with the guy getting locked up, ignoring such an overflowing amount of evidence for no valid reason isn't very sound.

My guess is most people that deny the holocaust would probably be bad poker players.

[whiskeytown]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

The germans are very strict about speech related to the Nazi Party - I would imagine denying the Holocaust to them could be tantamount to slander or libel - it's that important to them.

Plus they take a very low stand on Nazi stuff - they ban the swastika - all my WWII games use that stupid Luftwaffe cross to represent Germans instead of the Swastika.

I don't see where throwing a neo-nazi in prison for saying the Holocaust didn't happen is a sign of the end of freedom for Western Civilization....I think you'd almost have to be as ignorant as the revisionists to make that assumption. Esp. since the vast majority of revisionists also preach hate and White Supremacy.

If hate speech is banned, and if the law decides that Revisionist thinking is tantamont to Hate Speech, then they go in jail - In a way, I would imagine a guy going around the US saying lynchings didn't happen and that slavery wasn't all that bad would probably find himself in court sooner or later for simply stating lies as published facts.

Personally, let the guy get ass-raped by a big thug named Bubba for all I care - Civilization would not be any worse off in the slightest if every Neo-Nazi died a horrible death in a prison camp, preferably with the same anticpation and horror the Jews faced in the concentration camps.

RB

[tonypaladino]

There was a thread in OOT a while back, where I mentioned that it was stupid that people who want to debate the factual evidence of what took place, (for example if the 6 million killed is accurate) are lumped in the same catagory as those who beleive the holocaust is made up. I was called a holocaust denier and told to shut up. People are real open minded, but only when they want to be.

[mackthefork]

New Zealand's Holocaust denial problem

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The New Zealand Jewish Council while accepting Hayward's subsequent apology and withdrawal of his main conclusions, wondered how a Holocaust Denial thesis could have been accepted for examination and approved with a First Class Honours at Canterbury. The President of the New Zealand Jewish Council, David Zwartz, called upon the University to cancel the Master's degree awarded to Hayward on the basis of his thesis.


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These people are not morons, what they are is dangerous, sinister, and deluded.

Mack