Stopping a leak.

[ekky]

[ QUOTE ]

Trip 4s in a raised pot and aces up would not be real obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aces up would definately be your best hopes if winning a big pot

Trips fours mite not be too apparent at first, but the astute player should be able to figure it out before he hoofs all of his stack in the middle

Then again, if I have AA and the board is 44x.. I cant say that it strikes too much fear in me, although at some stage i'd try and excercise some form of pot control (if allowed) and get to showdown a little cheaper.

I dont think the odds of making trips/2 pair on the flop (as it will have to be a flopped hand, no excuse for trying to make it on the turn/river) justify the call.

In general, people tend to over-estimate the liklihood of getting someones stack when they DO hit these dream flops, in order to justify the call.

The deeper the stacks, the more justification naturally.

Also with regard to the *second best hand* comment earlier, i'd have to include a flush draw in that equation. Apart from misplaying a weak-ace when an ace flops, mis-playing a flush draw is also a chip-burner.

The higher the degree of skill, the easier it is to play these hands... but I think most people credit themselves with more skill/discipline then they really have, (I know I certainly do) so I tend to shy away from these scenarios to a degree.

[betgo]

If there is 235 on the board, it will not be real obvious you have a straight.

You can make 3 straights with 75s and 1 straight with A4s. With A4s, you make a stronger 2-pair and a better flush. I can't see how 75s is much better than A4s.

You can also win a very big pot with the nut flush if someone else has a flush. There is a lot of potential for a strong draw you can play aggressively, although it will proabably be a coin flop if you get called.

I agree this is a marginal hand, but it is stronger than it looks. A4o is such junk. People don't see that A4s is a reasonable speculative hand.

[DireWolf]

The problem is you will lose more chips with A4 then you will with 75s. being out of position with marginal hands is not how you want to make money.

for all those who want to play this hand(not saying it can't be done) what is you plan for a flop of:

A Q 7r

[ekky]

[ QUOTE ]
You can make 3 straights with 75s and 1 straight with A4s. With A4s, you make a stronger 2-pair and a better flush. I can't see how 75s is much better than A4s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the texture of the hand as it plays out as a lot more of a fit or fold situation..and given peoples proclivaties in playing Aces.. the natural fear of 2/3/5 flop is greater then a fear of a 3/4/6 flop.

The fear of flush over flush is so small, I rarely give it much consideration. If they have a bigger flush then I, they get all my chips. At least getting a flush with 5/7 can attract action from a naked Ace of that suit, which furthers the appeal.

Also, 5/7 can flop a few reasonable drawing hands, but A4 figures to only flop one, being the flush draw.

I agree A/4 suited has speculative qualities.. but on stars I think the BB is 30 and the stacks are 1500? thats 50 BB, and you already committ 3 BB's calling the persons raise.

you have to figure to be better then (50/3) .. 17-1 to flop trips/2 pair/flush (draw)/wheel.. and be exceedingly confident that you will get the origional raisers stack when you make your hand, in order to justify it.


The 17-1 can be justified, but the chance of getting the other persons stack as a result is too often over-estimated.

In tournies with deeper stacks or smaller blinds (UB immediately springs to mind) the inclination to call is a lot greater.. in the OPs situation.. I could easily convince myself to fold.

Not that I think calling here is bad, its just not for me.

[bobbycharles]

Wow, I went to bed with one response and look at the thread now! It looks like there is some dispute on wether this is leaky or not.

Here is my thought process....early in a MTT, say less than a $30 buyin, I call this for a couple of reasons. First rotation, I find a lot of fish willing to raise 55 from MP1 and cold call with KT from MP2. If I call from the SB, it's around 3 1/2 or 4:1 depending upon blind structure.

Now to Direwolf's question the flop is AQ7r...I've played it two ways...again, I'm thinking it's fishy out there so I'll lead out with a 1/2 pot bet and see what action I get. If I'm raised I'm done. It's when I'm smooth called that leads to the problem....do I check/fold the turn or bet at it again?

The other way is to check with anticipation of a check raise. If the original raiser shows strength, I'm out. If the cold caller throws a continuation bet out first in, I raise. Again, his show of strength is worrisome for a turn bet.

These scenarios have worked moderately well, but I'd love to see my long term numbers.

I'm tending to agree that this is a leak in my game, especially when confronted by a flop like above.

[betgo]

If calling the preflop raise with A4s in this situation is a leak, it is a very small one. Putting much money in with A4s on a AQ7r flop in a raised pot is a very big leak. If you play 75s, and a 7 or 5 flops, are you going to play like you have a strong hand?

[Crispy]

THe idea this early in tournaments is to get into a pot relatively cheap and get a chance to improve your stack by at least 25-50%. With A4s this is your perfect chance to do this. THe problem that rolls into play is your bad postion.

You asked if calling was a leak, and if it is, its a very small one. But then your comment on leading out on a AQ8r for 1/2 pot. That is a very very big leak, something you should be much more willing to put the time into fixing. With A4s on a AQ8r flop you are check/folding to any action.

[gobboboy]

[ QUOTE ]
for all those who want to play this hand(not saying it can't be done) what is you plan for a flop of:

A Q 7r

[/ QUOTE ]

That's an easy check/fold. What are YOUR plans if the flop is:

AJ4
or
56T 2suited in your suit.
or
236 2suited in your suit.
or even
27Q 2 suited in your suit.

There are so many hands you could make that allow you to take multiple people's stacks. For 30 chips where you're already getting over 3 to 1, I think this is an easy easy call.

[bobbycharles]

[ QUOTE ]
Putting much money in with A4s on a AQ7r flop in a raised pot is a very big leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent...it seems my preflop thinking was a marginal call, but leading out on an ace flop is the real leak...and as I alluded to before, this is exactly the situation that was giving me fits.

Now, continue the hand. AQ7r goes check, check, check.
What do you put them on now, small/med pairs? KQs? Slow playing AQ or AK?

Turn is a blank: Bet out?
Turn is a K: Check/fold? or Bet out?
It seems there is more of an argument now to not have been in the pot in the first place.