Experiment with raised pots

[amoeba]

Please read the entire thread before telling me I'm missing the point. I am checking regardless of what I hold.

This concept of obligated to bet the flop if you are pfr will get you in to trouble far more than my checking the flop will. The deeper you are, the more trouble you get in to with this concept because you are building a pot with a hand that oftentimes you don't want to play for your whole stack.

as to the calling a flop bet, in my original post, I state that you are in position headsup and its checked to you.

[intheflatfield]

[ QUOTE ]
This concept of obligated to bet the flop if you are pfr will get you in to trouble far more than my checking the flop will. The deeper you are, the more trouble you get in to with this concept because you are building a pot with a hand that oftentimes you don't want to play for your whole stack.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, didn't mean to hurt your feelers..

I do think you are flat wrong about the continuation bet.

It's like everything other concept, you have to apply it correctly. For instance if you make a couple of small continuation bets when you have hit your hand strongly, I assure you, the astute player will think 2x b4 snapping your bet off again. I also think the info you get is far more valuable than the chips you save by just checking.

Is it better to check and call a pot sized bet, and be forced to go into the turn still wondering where you are? I think it just makes your decision harder on the turn.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Are you firing twice with AK unimproved? If not, can you explain how you know more where you are on the river when the action goes
preflop - limp, raise, call
flop - check, bet pot, call
turn - check, check
river - bet pot

instead of like this
preflop - limp, raise, call
flop - check, check
turn - bet pot, call
river - bet pot

I don't think you really know where you are in either case. That's why heads up play is all about making reads and mixing up your play. If anything, I think that you life is probably a bit tougher in the first case because you have shown weakness on the turn after betting the flop and so your opponent might be betting the river on a bluff induced by your check. In the second line, once you call on the turn, your opponent should fear a slowplay and therefore may be more hesitant to fire again on the river. I think AK unimproved is less likely to be good in the second line than the first, FWIW. Although by no means is it certainly ahead in either case or certainly behind in either case. Of course flop texture and opponent tendencies play the largest role in determining where you are.

[amoeba]

my feelings have nothing to do with it. I get annoyed when the same topic has been covered and still brought up.

again, what info do you get? the info you get is only worth it if you don't give out info as well.

I'll break it down. Its an uncoordinated flop, you bet with whatever hand you have, they call or checkraise, what can you put them on at this point? they have " top pair, mid pair, set, or nothing". it tells you nothing about their hand that you wouldn't have known by checking and evaluating their turn action. By autobetting the flop on these type of flops when you have position, you are giving up the advantage of pot control. if you bet potsize and you are called, you've effectively tripled the pot size. if you bet 1/2 pot and you are called, you've doubled the pot size. it makes any hand aside from a monster very unwieldy to play for the next two streets.

I'm not calling a pot sized bet on the flop because my original assertion is that its checked to me on the flop and I'm in position. Out of position, you would of course play differently.

[amoeba]

this also avoids the I have AK.

preflop : limp, raise, call.

missed flop : check, bet, checkraise, fold.

vs

preflop : limp, raise, call.

missed flop : check, check.

hit turn for free.


but lets look at the alternative which is overpair hand.

preflop : limp, raise, call.

flop (opponent hit set) : check, bet, he calls

turn : check, I bet, he check raise, I fold. or

turn : he bets, I call.

river: he bets, I call.

vs

preflop : limp, raise, call.

opponent hits set : check, check.

turn : bet, call.

river: bet, call. ( turn and river bets are much smaller due to pot size on turn being smaller.

[intheflatfield]

Look, I said that to lighten the tone of my reply. As far as annoying you go's, then I apologize. I am just beginning to post here and I was just trying to clarify my original post (apparently ad nauseaum). I'm not trying to be a smart ass.

And I am not advocating auto-raising in the situation.

In the future I will try to read a post more closey b4 I reply. I am trying to learn so please have a little patience.

[TheWorstPlayer]

True. And then you have to take into account all the times that he hits his gutshot for free on the turn when you check behind on the flop. But then there are all the times that you hit YOUR gutshot for free on the turn when he was going to check/raise the flop, etc. I don't think there is a definitive answer. Think about it: you are playing heads up against someone but you always have the button. Are you always going to check after you raise preflop? No, of course not. Are you always going to bet? No, of course not. You are going to mix it up based on a lot of different factors:
- Recent history with this opponent
- Number of outs that you have if you are behind
- Likelihood of opponent check/raising a worse hand
- etc
- etc
- etc

I think this is the only real answer. If your initial point was that people make continuation bets too frequently and are therefore too easily read and too easily check/raised off of their hands on the flop, then I agree. If your point was that it is optimal to check behind on the flop more frequently than it is to bet the flop, then I disagree. But not too strongly. I think HU play is just very VERY situation and opponent dependent.

[NickPoker]

I think you should mix it up, raise sometimes when you miss, check sometimes when you hit. Don't always do anything you will be too predictable.

[amoeba]

no problems man. I might have been a bit caustic in my replys as well.

I'm just saying that I'm advocating this play on a very specific type of flop and in position.

if the flop came A 89 2 suited, I would bet the flop with any 2 if I was preflop raiser because there is something more realistic for me to represent and there are many more draws that my hand or the hand I'm representing has to protect against.

[amoeba]

right.

In some ways its like a way of playing Ed Miller's short stacked strategy without giving up on hands like mid pocket pairs and suited connectors. you are essentially keeping pot manageable so you don't have to make really tough decisions with single pair hands.

The thing you said about the times they hit gutshot for free balanced out by times you hit gutshot for free is true. The other advantage is that because you checked the flop, if they hit the gutshot, they have to bet for value because you might be still on missed overs and not likely to call much more so you save some money that way when you have a showdown worthy hand.

now, you might say that these type of flops don't come that often but really it does. like anything like 3 88 or 338 or stuff like that counts too.

In closing, I think if your opponent is loose preflop but plays well postflop, this is a good strategy.