4th street play

[morgan]

I've been wondering lateley about when you can play against a paired door card on 4th. So here is a sample situation I would appreciate some input on:

Let's say you called a raise from a ten on 3rd street with split 5's and king kicker. Only you and the ten see 4th. Then on 4th street you catch a king, but the ten catches another ten. The ten's bet out. Should you call, raise, or fold? If he has 2-pair (smaller than kings up) you are a 3-1 favorite, but if he has trips you are a 4-1 dog. If he has a small 3-flush with a pair, you are a 4-1 fav., and if he has an ace-high 3-flush with pair you are slightly better than 2-1 fav. I believe all these numbers are correct. What do you think?

[Marco Trevix]

THis is one of the biggest dilemma playing stud.
I found that my best move is to raise his 4th street bet and then watching his reaction. A reraise from his part doesn't mean a clear fold but...
If he smooth calls and comes out betting on 5th I'm prone to fold. If he checks I check along.
The problem is that when I play vs the big guys my move is a money loser not only because they well know my strategy but because they are big players and they outmanouver me easily.

Marco

[Scott V]

This is when your play depends more on your read of the other player than your read of the cards. It may change again on future streets, but I don't think you have a "set in stone" way to go at this point in the hand.

[Gitz]

What about A's over 10's. Isn't that a more likely scenario that he raised on third with? Does he normaly raise with 10's? Are there A's out? Alot of things to consider before making your decision.

[Andy B]

My general tendency is to just call it down against most opponents, and maybe throw in a raise somewhere along the way against the most loose-aggressive of them. If you're not up against trip Tens, you could well be up against Aces-up, but against typical opponents you could also be up against a lot of hands you can beat:

(QQ)TT
(JJ)TT
(99)TT
(QJ)TT
(A[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]4[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img])T[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]

etc, etc. The wider your opponent's range of raising hands, the more hands you can beat, and the more inclined you should be to continue.

A lot of players won't raise with a pair of Tens, because it doesn't look good enough to raise with. Jacks do. If you know that this opponent will only raise with Jacks or higher, then there are six ways he can have Jacks, six ways he can have Queens, one way he can have Kings (since you have the other two), and six ways he can have Aces. You need to adjust these figures for the cards that are out, but it's about 2:1 in favor of him having a hand you can beat in that case.

If he does have trips, you're in trouble, but even there you can suck out once in a while. Overall, I think that given the range of hands that most opponents can have, you've got to at least call most of the time.

[Pot-A]

I agree with Gitz. You have to look at the texture of the board on third street. In other words - you have to put this guy on a hand.

In this particular case, if he's raising into a bunch of big cards on third street, he probably has you beat.

On the other hand, if everybody but the bring in folded to him and you were the last to act on third street, you can put him on a much wider range of hands. He might have something as weak as 66 in the hole. Or he might be on a flush draw. The bet on fourth street doesn't mean anything, since he knows how scary it looks.

On the whole I might call this one down, depending on the opponent and the cards that fall on later streets. Split tens isn't normally a raising hand on third street.

[SittingBull]

normally a CALLING hand on 3rd if it's an overcard to the board or if there is only one card higher than a 10 showing.
In fact,ANY PAIR that meets either one of the above conditions in a TIGHT game is a RAISING hand
However,if u can't reduce the field to give yourself a better chance to win the pot,then CALLING is definitely appropriate.

Happy Pokering,
Sitting Bull
[img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[SittingBull]

to unlock your delimma is to approximate the frequency of hands this opponent plays on 3rd.
If he plays a rather large % of his hands,I would agree with Andy's post. If he plays on the conservative side by NOT entering too many hands,I would tend to fold since the pot is small relative to the betting limit and there is a higher probability that he has a set.
If he is a "tricky" player who verys his play with the approximate correct frequency,U ARE in serious trouble if U continue to play.
In this case,fold. However,if the same situation occurs with the same player during the same session,follow Andy's advice.
H [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] appy pokering,
Sitting Bull

[Pot-A]

Hi Bull,

That's why I weasled and said a bunch of big cards! Seriously, the scarier the board after him looks, the less likely he had split tens, although kings up might still be beat.