basic or no?

[fnord_too]

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I may take any of my options depending on the situation

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You fold this preflop sometimes?!?!?!



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Against someone who won't open raise without a 1 card draw or a better two card draw, I would fold this. There are not a lot of players who are that tight, so I would have to have to know villain pretty well, but it is a two card draw with some not so good improvements that can be made (that is you can improve to a one card draw that is a 4 straight). Like I said, I usually raise, sometime call, but against a rock I have no problem folding this OOP, especially in the 3/6 where the structure is 1/3 sb.

[MarkGritter]

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There are not a lot of players who are that tight, so I would have to have to know villain pretty well, but it is a two card draw with some not so good improvements that can be made (that is you can improve to a one card draw that is a 4 straight).

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Sorry, I don't get your reasoning here. Drawing a 4 to a 2345x is pretty good (~8 outs to a #1 or #5) and a 6 gives you a 2356. Either way you're drawing from the bottom up; I don't think the potential 2-6 straight hurts all that much in this case. I generally show some aggression with a 2345 after the first draw, do you feel that's a mistake?

[fnord_too]

I merely saying that a 23x where x < 7 is worse by a fair amount than 2x7 where x is 3, 4, 5 or 6. When you catch any card in the latter case you have 8 outs to a 7 and 12 outs to an 8. With the former, if you catch a 4 or a 6 you have 4 outs to a 7 and 8 outs to an 8 (albeit a smooth 8). That is pretty significant. In 2-7, I prefer having two non straight cards to building from the bottom up. I would rather have something like 3468 with one draw left than 2,3,4,5 in most cases.

[MarkGritter]

It's actually fairly close (using the twodimes calculator in lowball mode to figure competing one-card last draws

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
pokenum -l27 2s 3s 4s 5c / as - 3h 4h 6h 8d / ah
5-card Draw 2-7 Lowball: 1722 enumerated outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
4s 3s 2s 5c 827 48.03 895 51.97 0 0.00 0.480
8d 6h 4h 3h 895 51.97 827 48.03 0 0.00 0.520
</pre><hr />

The 86's outs have to be severely discounted here because it's up against such a smooth hand. The 54 hand is actually a small favorite if he's paired a couple of cards.

(BTW, I couldn't get the "dead cards" to work on twodimes to simulate earlier discards, I had to make a 3rd junk hand instead... anybody know what's going on?)

[MarkGritter]

8743 is a bigger favorite over 2345, about 55/45. I'll have to rethink how hard I'm pushing that draw.

[fnord_too]

wow, i need to check that tool out (i've only used my own code and poker stove)

can you put in ranges of hands for td? i would be interested to see how each fares against a range of hands.

[MarkGritter]

Sadly, no, you can only calculate specific hands.

I would love to have a PokerStove-style calculator. It probably wouldn't be too hard to put something together which calculated the last draw probabilities over a range of hands.

I'd also like to see some tool that showed hand distribution for particular drawing patterns/standards (i.e., with inputs for starting hands, # of draws, will he break 9, etc.); I've put a little bit of work into doing this but haven't gotten very far.

[MarkGritter]

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(BTW, I couldn't get the "dead cards" to work on twodimes to simulate earlier discards, I had to make a 3rd junk hand instead... anybody know what's going on?)

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It looks like the web interface inserts an extra '/' before the dead cards, which gets confused with the draw separator. But, you can just put all the previous draws in with the current draw, like this:

2s 3s 4s 5c / As 5s 2c
3h 4h 6h 8d / Ac Td 3c

[EvanJC]

what the hell is going on...