genius or insanity? maybe a stupid river move. 2/4 8/B

[bholdr]

i don't remember all the details, but when it got to the river it looked like this:

Hero (me), i raised on the left of the BI on third, bet fourth, got raised by the mainiac, called, and check/called fifth and sixth: [8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]

and the mainiac on my left, who had been the bettor throughout the hand since he raised fourth (representing a flush+low draw? whatever...), had: [xx]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]:8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img][x]. i put him on a made low.

the third player (W/T/passive) in the pot had been calling along with: [xx]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][x], though he took a long time to make the call on sixth. i assume he had two pair by then.



so:

I assumed i was beat. i had no low and a weak two pair. the mainiac has a made low... he liked to jam it up with those, but i wouldn't give him credit for the flush, clubs being do dead, etc. I thought the W/T caller had me beat for high...

but i bet out.


thoughts? it worked; The mainiac raised, the other player folded, i called, and got half the pot. I thought this would work often enough to be +EV, or... did i get lucky?

[Aquarian]

Hi bholdr,

I think it's a good move here as your position is
perfect to make the bet but do you fold if
the third player calls 2 on the river? My only concern
is your statement of the maniac "i put him on a made low."

If I was 3rd player and had 2 pair I wouldnt be
especially scared of either board facing me. Maybe
they only had [ K x ] K to start because I would
be surprised if they folded 2 pair. I would also be
worried that the maniac will be going high some
proportion of the time. At least your 2 pocket [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
make it less likely they have caught a flush.

It would be interesting to see the betting throughout
the hand. If the maniac bets out on 4th with 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
showing what do you put them on then ?

Aq.

[mscags]

I really like plays like this actually, you just have to be fairly certain of your opponents tendencies. I also think this is a move that you can't use too often otherwise your more observant opponents will catch on. I think Zee mentions something like this in his book IIRC.

Mike

[imported_getfunky]

On ther river, most players at 2/4 will call two bets cold with kings up unless an opponent has a 4 flush or 4 str8 showing. So if you had not made two pair on the river, this would have been a brilliant play, as you might have stolen half the pot with a pair of sevens, getting a pair of kings to fold, and you could easily muck if the king called. I would favor check calling here with the two pair, since I think a pair of kings will definitely call one bet but prob. not two and kings up will probably call two, thus you usually save a bet or gain 1/2 a bet with two small pair.

i agree w/mscaqs that this is a good play when used appropriately - you shouldn't try this often especially against the same players ..it's especially risky when you're in middle position because you would be the one raising and then would then be forced to call another bet should the king fold and the maniac have a low hand or a good high hand. Of course if he just calls, he might have no low and a smaller pair. Usually, however you are playing for only half the pot and would have to commit three bets to steal half = very unfavorable pot odds. I might try it if the pot was very large and had a good read. I think that first position with the maniac in the middle and the passive in last position is a great time to try it because it only costs you single bet.

btw, what does W/T stand for?

[mscags]

[ QUOTE ]
btw, what does W/T stand for?

[/ QUOTE ]

weak/tight

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
On ther river, most players at 2/4 will call two bets cold with kings up unless an opponent has a 4 flush or 4 str8 showing. So if you had not made two pair on the river, this would have been a brilliant play, as you might have stolen half the pot with a pair of sevens, getting a pair of kings to fold, and you could easily muck if the king called. I would favor check calling here with the two pair, since I think a pair of kings will definitely call one bet but prob. not two and kings up will probably call two, thus you usually save a bet or gain 1/2 a bet with two small pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the line that i had originally decided on. i almost did check/call it, but, i thought my bet would represent enough strength to get that W/T player to fold when the mainiac raised (i was about 90% sure that he would)- I find that when a player with three to a low straight showing C/Cs until they bet out on the river, it almost always means a made straight, trips, etc... i hoped that the K would think so too... maybe he just folded kings... i'm not sure exactly why, but my feel for this player made me pretty damn sure that he had at least two pair on sixth... in fact, he was tight enough that he may not even have called on fifth without Ks up or better.

so, i either A: lost half a bet by forcing out KK that would have called, B: won half the pot that i didn't deserve, or C: got lucky.

it felt good when it worked, though. ty.

You only have to be correct in your read about 1 out of 2.5 pots. Therefore, your play is good, but hardly genius. Remember you will get snapped-off soemtimes in this situation, but it's the strongest play.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
ou only have to be correct in your read about 1 out of 2.5 pots. Therefore, your play is good, but hardly genius.

[/ QUOTE ]

well... i felt smart when i came up with it. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]