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  #21  
Old 06-06-2005, 05:21 PM
legendary loser legendary loser is offline
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Default Barry g\'s Phil H analysis

As people have noted. His steam control is the worst out of everyone.

Phil Hellmuth, Jr.
Aggressiveness: 7
Looseness: 7
Short-handed: 7
Limit: 6
No-limit: 7
Tournaments: 7
Side games: 3
Steam factor: 2
Against weak players: 8
Against strong players: 5

Best game: Tournament no-limit hold'em
Weakness: Self control

Phil may go down as the pioneer in a method of playing a lot of hands and making small bets and raises that keep opponents in the pot, the theory being that he will make better decisions than they do on subsequent streets. This strategy guarantees large fluctuations and has a lot to say for it against weak opposition. This method would not work as well in a cash game where there is no rush to build up a chip stack and by virtue of playing too many pots opponents can easily take the betting lead away. In a tournament, the extra fear of going busted can keep your opponents at bay and the bad players are confused by what looks like mass hysteria to them. When Phil has his banter and his A-game working, he not only can control the table, but he can mesmerize the entire room.

Players who have been successful adopting a similar style are Gus Hansen, Layne Flack, Antonio Esfandiari, Alan Goehring, and to a small degree Daniel Negreanu.

Phil has assured me that he is a much better player than I give him credit for. He feels he has enough technical skill to win at higher limits, but when he has tried in the past, he often gotten derailed by his lack of self-control.

Amusing anecdote

I first played with Phil in a no-limit side game in Los Angeles in 1992. I didn’t pay attention to tournament poker back then, but I had heard that he was a cocky kid who had won a big tournament. He was playing fast and loose and showing his hands and needling people whenever he outplayed them. Well, I was pretty cocky too. Phil opened for a raise, I reraised and Phil called. After the flop, I bet, Phil raised and I reraised him all-in. He thought for a while, showed me top pair and then folded. I showed him Deuce-Three offsuit which bore no relation to the flop.

Phil stood up and said, “Nice play buddy, but that’s the stupidest thing you’ve ever done. Do you realize that giving me that kind of information is going to cost you all of your money? It’s because of players like you that I make millions of dollars a year playing poker.”


http://www.barrygreenstein.com/player.htm
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  #22  
Old 06-07-2005, 01:24 AM
duma duma is offline
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Default Re: Barry g\'s Phil H analysis

Phil exploits the weak players in tournaments and builds up a chip stack. he cannot do that in cash games because chip stack is pretty much irrelevant. like greenstein said on that 4 part video interview with cardplayer.com yesterday about negranue, the same applies to hellmuth.
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  #23  
Old 06-07-2005, 02:09 AM
betgo betgo is offline
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Default Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????

Maybe because he follows his own advice in "Play Poker Like the Pros."

There was a discussion in the MTT forum about how McEvoy plays is the same predictable ABC manner that he recommends in his books. Maybe, similar is tur for Hellmuth. The sections of his book on tournamwnt play were certainly much better than the section on limit holdem cash games.
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  #24  
Old 06-07-2005, 04:58 AM
JohnnyHumongous JohnnyHumongous is offline
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Default Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????

One can find Phil playing in 150-300 and 200-400 limit holdem games on Ultimate Bet and other high limit games like 80-160 triple draw, and even higher live games. Some here are talking about him like he is a total mark who can hardly read the board. I know it's fair game to critique celebrities and successful people, but come on give it a rest 2+2. On a day to day basis Phil Hellmuth never crosses my mind; my thoughts about him are neither positive nor negative. He is what he is. When you guys take all the time in the world to dissect his character flaws and critique his skills you're really sending a powerful message that Hellmuth is significant to you, and that his existence affects you. Let it go.
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  #25  
Old 06-07-2005, 05:18 AM
einbert einbert is offline
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Default Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Could it be because donkey's always draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


Wrong. Stop being a nit.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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  #26  
Old 06-07-2005, 05:27 AM
Gramps Gramps is offline
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Location: Oaktown
Posts: 124
Default Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????

[ QUOTE ]
One can find Phil playing in 150-300 and 200-400 limit holdem games on Ultimate Bet and other high limit games like 80-160 triple draw, and even higher live games. Some here are talking about him like he is a total mark who can hardly read the board. I know it's fair game to critique celebrities and successful people, but come on give it a rest 2+2. On a day to day basis Phil Hellmuth never crosses my mind; my thoughts about him are neither positive nor negative. He is what he is. When you guys take all the time in the world to dissect his character flaws and critique his skills you're really sending a powerful message that Hellmuth is significant to you, and that his existence affects you. Let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dissecting flaws of people whose flaws consist of dissecting the flaws of others is making the red light on top of my "palpable irony sensor" flash on and off while a loud siren blares...

...but I do agree with your point.
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  #27  
Old 06-07-2005, 01:17 PM
InfernoLL InfernoLL is offline
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Posts: 32
Default Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????

I don't think that there's anything out of the ordinary about talking about a highly visible player on a TV tournament poker forum. The fact that he's possibly the most immature and egomaniacal player on the tournament circuit, combined with the fact that he's also supposed to be one of the best, makes this discussion completely worthwhile.

I personally think he's nowhere near as good as he's given credit for being. Look at the size of the fields in most of his bracelet wins, they're tiny compared to today's fields. He can whine about being outdrawn as much as he wants; he doesn't seem to realize that everyone playing in these tournaments has the same problem, yet none of the other top players manage to complain about it even 10% as much. If I was involved in a hand where he started moaning about my play, I'd tell him to stop being a baby and then possibly start criticizing his play. That would be fun.

As for a lack of fundamental knowledge of the cards, this is almost certainly true. No one has mentioned the fact that he made a real money wager that AKo was a favorite over AKs heads up. This is like 16 levels below the knowledge of any competent cash game player. Also, we've seen him multiple times quote odds that were just terribly wrong. Remember when he accused a guy of "drawing dead", and the guy won the hand at show down. That's just stupid, 5 outs isn't drawing dead. Maybe if he played cash games well he would know that.
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  #28  
Old 06-07-2005, 04:48 PM
JohnnyHumongous JohnnyHumongous is offline
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Posts: 382
Default Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????

[ QUOTE ]
If I was involved in a hand where he started moaning about my play, I'd tell him to stop being a baby and then possibly start criticizing his play. That would be fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

no you wouldn't
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  #29  
Old 06-07-2005, 04:52 PM
PITTM PITTM is offline
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Default Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????

yeah, why would you guys discuss a poker player who plays in wpt and other televised tournaments here?...oh yeah...

rj
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