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  #1  
Old 01-18-2005, 04:26 PM
RobGW RobGW is offline
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Default Semi Bluffing

In HEPFAP, they mention that flush draws could be used as a semi bluffing opportunity with one card to come. Is there any reason not to semi-bluff on the flop?
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  #2  
Old 01-18-2005, 04:36 PM
Stormwolf Stormwolf is offline
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Default Re: Semi Bluffing

RobGW,
Its much more likely you will be called because of the today's limit structure, the bet/raise will be too small amount compared to the pot
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  #3  
Old 01-18-2005, 05:54 PM
stone_7 stone_7 is offline
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Default Re: Semi Bluffing

If you expect to get more than about 3 callers and no reraise on the flop wouldn't a bet on a flush draw qualify as a value bet?
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  #4  
Old 01-18-2005, 06:10 PM
Moss Factor Moss Factor is offline
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Default Re: Semi Bluffing

Raising on the flop would be less of a bluff to try and win the pot, because so infrequently would someone put a bet out and then fold for 1 a small bet (although it happens occasionally). You'd be most likely raising to get a free card or, depending on the number of opponents you have, for value.

If you have other outs, you'd want to raise to increase your pot equity. For example, if you have Ac2c on Tc6c3d, you'd be raising to try and eliminate other Ax hands, to make the aces outs for you, and also to get out draws like gutshot draws and 3x/6x hands that may make two pair on the turn and lower the chances of your ace being a clean out.

Reasons to not semibluff on the flop would be if you think getting a free card is impossible, you're not getting value from a raise, and you think that the only way to win is to complete your draw.

For example, if you have 67o on a 58K rainbow and you face a bet and a raise. You know with that much agression that putting in a 3-bet is probably not going to slow the action down- the flop will probably capped and the turn bet, so you free card play is useless. Plus you can't raise for value, because nobody behind will call 3-bets cold without a monster, and you're up against only 2 opponents. The way to get value from this pot is to call and try for overcalls to improve your odds. A pair of 6s or 7s probably won't win, and you're going to have to complete your strait to win.

I would suggest calling in such a situation where a raise would not a) give you a free card, b) be for value or c) give you extra outs.
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  #5  
Old 01-18-2005, 06:20 PM
cnfuzzd cnfuzzd is offline
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Default Re: Semi Bluffing

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any reason not to semi-bluff on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

when you can semi-bluff-check-cap...

also, HU with a calling station who has middle pair when you have overs and some heavy draw action.

peace

john nickle
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  #6  
Old 01-18-2005, 06:35 PM
Benman Benman is offline
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Default Re: Semi Bluffing

This question points out some shifts in in 2+2 thought/terminology that have taken place between HPFAP and SSHE. A semi-bluff used to be described as a bet or raise with a hand which, if called, doesn't figure to be best but has a reasonable chance to outdraw. SSHE sort of does away with the whole ahead/behind distinction and has you think instead in terms of equity. Betting some four flushes on the flop is still technically a semi-bluff since if called you're probably "behind" in the sense that if the hand ended there you'd lose. But it has positive expecation/equity/value, so it really isn't what you'd traditionally characterize as a semi-bluff. Maybe it's time to re-define semi-bluffs: a bet or raise with a hand when you don't have positive equity, but isn't hopeless. Ie, you're rooting for a fold, since your equity is negative, but might luck out. Better still: a semi-bluff is a bet or raise with a hand that has a negative pot equity if called, but a positive combination of pot equity plus fold equity (the added value you get becaue all your opponents might fold.)
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  #7  
Old 01-18-2005, 06:41 PM
cnfuzzd cnfuzzd is offline
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Default Re: Semi Bluffing

any semi-bluff that doesnt have positive expectation shouldnt be made. and, technicaly, isnt a semi-bluff. Som semi-bluffs have more value than others, and thus are much more "semi" and much less "bluff".

peace

john nickle
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  #8  
Old 01-18-2005, 06:56 PM
Benman Benman is offline
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Default Re: Semi Bluffing

I agree. The expectation of a bet is a combination of your pot equity (the showdown value of your bet) and your fold equity (the value you get from the chance that your opponents will fold). A semi-bluff has negative pot equity but enough fold equity to push you over the hump into positive expectation. The old definition of a semi-bluff (bet with a hand that "doesn't figure to be best") is actually in error in the modern, SSHE, way of thinking. For example, consider a flop bet into several players with an open-ended straight flush draw, but no overcards. Technically that's a semi-bluff under the old definition because, if called, you're surely behind to at least an overcard or pair or something. But you have tremendous positive expectation on your bet alone, regardless of fold equity. Therefore, I submit that it's wrong to call that bet a semi-bluff anymore. A semi-bluff would need to be a bet which, if called, has a negative pot equity, which is not true of an open-ended straight flush draw (or other strong draws). A correct example of a semi-bluff would be raising with bottom pair, an overcard kicker, and maybe a weak backdoor draw. You are hoping for a fold, because if called, not only are you behind (the old definition) but your bet itself had negative showdown odds (ie negative pot equity). But, the bet nevertheless has positive "expectation", because the combination of pot equity and fold equity makes the bet profitable.
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  #9  
Old 01-18-2005, 07:39 PM
cnfuzzd cnfuzzd is offline
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Default Re: Semi Bluffing

i think even under the "old" way of thinking, your example of betting a sf into several players wouldnt be a semi-bluff, but instead a value bet, or at least a semi-bluff-value-bet. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Also, i think its not the two terms that are confusing you, but the fact that you are now thinking as an expert would think. I am confident that Sklanksy, when describing the semi-bluff, was ascribing all off the characteristics you are listing for your "positive pot equity" (perhaps showdown value would also be an acceptable term.)

Also, remember the semi-bluff is usefull across a spectrum of game conditions, from the very tight to the very loose, yet its use must be tailored to each individual instance of betting. Yet, all those bets are semi-bluffs. When you flop and OE straight-flush draw, and bet it into a field of 6 loose passive players, you are semi-bluffing, as you dont mind picking up the pot right there, but if called you certainly have plenty of ways to improve. Similairly, if you are in a moderatly tight, somewhat aggressive game, and after raising your AKs in UTG+2 after a single tight limper pf, you bet into a 3TQr flop, you are semi-bluffing. The tight limper likely has a better hand than you, given his utg limp probably a pocket pair or maybe some sort of middlin' connector which hit, but you are representing the best hand. IF you pick up the pot, great, if not, you certainly dont mind calls in that you are likely drawing clean to a better hand.

Also, remember that a semi-bluff is any bet that is made without the best hand that hopes to pick up the pot then and there, but is made with a hand that is drawing live if called.

Finally, remember why you are semi-bluff-raising with bottom pair with an overcard kicker and backdoor draw. You are buying outs, or perhaps trying for a free card, or even trying to earn a cheap showdown with your marginal, but possibly best, hand.

Rarely should any action taken in poker have one purpose. The best players are able to get all sorts of utility out of every single action that they take at the table. Thinking such as yours shows that you are considering all the reasons of why we do things. Sometimes we get so caught up in our loosey-goosey party games that we forget that there is a whole other world of poker out there that doesnt feature an average of five people to the flop. The skills we are learning here are usefull there too, so long as we learn not just how to use them, but also why we are using them.

peace

john nickle
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