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#11
08-07-2005, 11:29 PM
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Re: are we liking this turn check/raise?
you're right, against ADVANCED(thinking) opponents I might wanna mix things up, however, against your average group of party 1/2 monkeys, I'm keeping it as straight forward and simple as possible
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#12
08-07-2005, 11:30 PM
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Re: are we liking this turn check/raise?
"Here's an example. Suppose you start with AK and the flop comes A 9 2 rainbow. You have bet the flop and have been called by everyone and have every reason to believe that you have the best hand. If a blank hits on 4th street, which menas it is still likely you have the best hand, you frequently should check and prepare to check raise if someone else bets"
page 142 hold em for advanced players. am i thinking more advanced than i ought to by following their guidelines?
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#13
08-07-2005, 11:30 PM
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Re: are we liking this turn check/raise?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] why on earth would you want to give everyone a free peak at the river? they want to fold. let them. [/ QUOTE ] well not to be an [censored], but apparently you guys are too boring or something. from HEFAP (advanced players...maybe that is telling me something about you guys? kidding....) "Here's an example. Suppose you start with AK and the flop comes A 9 2 rainbow. You have bet the flop and have been called by everyone and have every reason to believe that you have the best hand. If a blank hits on 4th street, which menas it is still likely you have the best hand, you frequently should check and prepare to check raise if someone else bets" page 142. explain. go. now. [/ QUOTE ] the basic premise of hefap is that you are facing competant players. i highly doubt that is the case at party 1/2. it's like quoting from einstein when teaching kindergarden sure, einstein is right, but it doesn't help get the glue out of timmy's esophagus, does it?
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#14
08-07-2005, 11:33 PM
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Re: are we liking this turn check/raise?
[ QUOTE ]
page 142 hold em for advanced players. am i thinking more advanced than i ought to by following their guidelines? [/ QUOTE ] newsflash, HEPFAP starts becoming applicable at 10-20 and 15-30, where the opponents are smart, you must give a level of credit, but you need to outplay. This is 1-2 for crying out loud. BET.
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#15
08-07-2005, 11:37 PM
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Re: are we liking this turn check/raise?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] why on earth would you want to give everyone a free peak at the river? they want to fold. let them. [/ QUOTE ] well not to be an [censored], but apparently you guys are too boring or something. from HEFAP (advanced players...maybe that is telling me something about you guys? kidding....) "Here's an example. Suppose you start with AK and the flop comes A 9 2 rainbow. You have bet the flop and have been called by everyone and have every reason to believe that you have the best hand. If a blank hits on 4th street, which menas it is still likely you have the best hand, you frequently should check and prepare to check raise if someone else bets" page 142. explain. go. now. [/ QUOTE ] See, I've read HEPFAP a lot too. And most of the stuff in there has been responsible for major leaks in my game. HEPFAP is for playing opponents who think like you do. People who are as skilled or nearly are as you. For example: Do you often find yourself folding flops with KJo on a J-hgh drawy board when someone bets into you and there are people left to act behind you? HEPFAP says you should most of the time. I'm willing to bet you don't most of the time. See a lot of the stuff in HEFAP just doesn't apply to the opponents we face. That's why they made an entire book on the subject for playing with opponents who play too many hands, and go too far with them. It's called Small Stakes Hold 'Em, you should check it out.
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#17
08-07-2005, 11:46 PM
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Re: are we liking this turn check/raise?
When you are looking to check/raise a street, you should have a plan in place before you even see a flop. You basically need...
1) The right number of players in the pot. You are usually looking for a HU or 3-way pot. 2) The right type of opponent(s). 3) The right type of board. 4) The right size pot. Namely a small pot. Going for a check/raise in the hand you present is pretty silly. This pot is damn big and you risk a check through by going for a check/raise here. That would be okay if the pot were 3 BB, but certainly not when the pot is 12 BB. Play straight forward in big pots dude. Let me give you an example of where you would be looking for a check/raise. You open pop AK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in EMP. An decent player coldcalls on the button and you take a flop HU. Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] You bet and he calls. Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] You check with the intention of raising. Why? 1) The pot is small. If he checks behind it isn't a big loss. It also might encourage him to call on the river where he might have folded if we bet again on 4th street. If the pot were big, we would obviously want to bet to prevent giving a free card. 2) This is the type of player who might fold if we bet again. Against a calling station you would never try a play like this, but not so against a decent player. 3) The board is drawless so he probably has a pair when he calls the flop. If he is probably calling with a draw you would want to bet again. When he probably has a pair, he is more likely to bet when you check so there is a good chance that he will bet either a 3 or 5 outer when we check here. There is also a good chance that he will payoff since we played our hand oddly. He wants to see what we will do this with. Hope this helps, Brad
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#18
08-07-2005, 11:53 PM
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Re: are we liking this turn check/raise?
[ QUOTE ]
HEFAP suggest c/r on the turn w/ top pair A LOT more than I do. Here it was a large pot, lots of folks, and I decided I'd risk a free card on the turn hoping to get a c/r and knock out some guys who have a piece of the board and prevent them from drawing out on me. The pot was large enough to give gutshots and 5outers odds to draw to the river. Good use of c/r or no? [/ QUOTE ] HPFAP is written for a tight aggressive game. For this type of play to work, all you need is the aggressive part. If you knew that a late position player would bet their hand (either for value or as a semi-bluff), then the check-raise is fine. But you should really ask yourself what a check-raise attempt tries to accomplish. It's not just about driving out other players.......
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#19
08-07-2005, 11:54 PM
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Re: are we liking this turn check/raise?
There is a slight danger that the turn gets checked through and that would be a disaster. Go for this HU or 3way against very aggressive opponents. Here you should just bet the turn.
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#20
08-07-2005, 11:56 PM
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Re: are we liking this turn check/raise?
It's not so much that as in these games you will be giving up on a lot of hands on fourth street(semi-bluffs; bad turns ect.) and you balance out your strategy by checking a lot of good hands so that you can CR them.
The passage that irishpint left out kind of explains it: [ QUOTE ] ...you won't follow through with most of your semi-bluffs and/or weak draws you routinely bet on the flop. Therefore to avoid giving your hand away, you also must check a lot of good hands. Specifically when first to act, you probably should check as much as 60% of the time with your good and bad hands alike, as long as free cards are not a major problem and your opponents are aggressive. [/ QUOTE ] So the problem isn't that there are too many opponents in this particular hand, it's that the opponents you are playing against don't fit it's standards. The opponents HEPFAP has you playing most usually won't have TJ or a a backdoor club flush in this situation. You should bet here most of the time because free cards are a major problem at these limits and your opponents are usually not that aggressive.
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