Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?

[Agthorr]

The things I consider are:
<ul type="square"> [*] Am I drawing to a good hand?[*] What's the WTSD % of my opposition and how does this relate to my pot odds?[*] How many of them are there?[*] Do I have any reason to believe they have a decent hand?[*] How likely is it that someone else will bet if I don't?[*] How likely is it that I'll be raised if I bet?[/list]
That flop is bad because you're just drawing to a pair while other hands are drawing to straights or flushes. If you land the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], you'll either be way ahead or way behind and you won't be able to play aggressively. You've only got 4 clean outs, but there are 17 scary cards that could wreck your hand even when you make it. Yuck. The flush draws may even raise you.

Basically, I prefer to bet out with overcards if I'm semi-bluffing. People with nothing will (presumably) fold and I want anyone who just flopped a small pair to fold because they think I have a big pocket pair. But if they don't fold, I want the chance to improve to a big pair.

I also prefer to do this when I have reason to think my opponents don't like their hands, such as if I'm only up against the blinds, or my opponents are very loose with their pre-flop calls, or my opponents are weak-tight and appear to be playing fit-and-fold.

Your odds of folding everyone out go down very quickly the more opponents you have. If you estimate each opponent has a 30% chance of folding, then with 3 opponents your odds of folding all of them are 36-to-1. Not good. On the other hand, if the flop looks particularly useless (2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]), then maybe you estimate each opponent has a 60% chance of folding, and then your odds are 3.6-to-1. As you can see, the difference (for you) between a coordinated flop and an uncoordianted flop is huge. :-)

I don't do the math out every time, I just estimate.

[@bsolute_luck]

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I'm prone to check fold this situation. There's too many ways to be beat str8, flush draw, even a measly couple of 4s or 6s has you beat. AK looks very pretty pf but you've flopped a big blank with very few outs to improve to maybe 2nd best so look to get out of this hand as cheap as possible.
P.S. I'm a recovering autobettor but I got sick of donating to obviously losing situations.

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hahaha! are you guys serious? am i really that LAGgish? people call our preflop bet (1 being a poster), the flop comes and suddenly we're folding AK to a pair of 8s or flush draw?

there are 3 people in the hand (1 which folds to a single bet), and suddenly our AK is no good, someone is on a straight draw, another on a flush draw, hell, let's give the last guy in the hand a slowplayed set- why not?

maybe it's just me, and if it is, please free me from my LAGGish ways!!! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[dozer]

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getting 8:1 you should at least see the turn with 2 overcards.

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Let's follow the SSHE advice and say our overcards are worth 0.5 each since sometimes we still lose when we hit them. So we have about 3 outs &gt; 14:1. However, two of them put three to a flush, so these two are worth even less plus it gives anyone with a club a redraw to a flush. I wouldn't count these two as outs since they're practically worthless. Add to all this that we're facing three opponents our overcards drop in value a bit more. So, we have more or less between 1.5-2 outs &gt; 22:1. That's my reasoning here for not calling. Anyone with any comments on this is welcomed.

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I don't see how check calling can't be a option, if someone bets your odds are better than 8:1, there is also a chance that it would get checked through and you get to see the turn for free and check fold when the turn comes a blank. Giving yourself only 2 outs or less is way too low, this board does not look like it hit anybody hard, so your overcard outs are more likely to be live.
I don't mind betting either. But I don't really like folding.The turn is easy, if you miss then fold. folding on the flop seems like fit or fold poker.IMO

[droolie]

Playing overcards is one of the toughest things to do and yet is a critically important skill to have because it comes up all the time. If you are a tight player you will be faced with this dilemna as much as 50% of the hands you enter in any one session. Auto-betting because you raised pf is a pretty big mistake IMO.

I look at raising pf as similar to doubling down black jack. When you think your hand is best get your money in the pot. However once the flop comes down hand values change dramatically. You need to adjust to this change in value or else you'll be spewing chips. The hand you posted is a terrific example of this. Your AKo suddenly looks like a very weak drawing hand with only two cards to go to me. You're drawing to top pair, your [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] outs are dirty, the chance of reverse domanition is large and your opponents probably are ahead now or with stronger draws that a flop bet will never drive away. It doesn't seem fair that your AKo that you patiently waited for is suddenly a big underdog to the like of any idiot who limped in with A4o or even 57s but them are the breaks.

I raise pf anywhere from 10-12% of the time and yet wind up check calling or even check folding in these types of flops all the time. The responses I get in the chat box are quite funny from time to time. (it realy pisses people off when after raising pf you check/ fold and they're sitting on a monster hoping you'll help them pump the pot)

Checking these flops (especially in EP) often gives you more accurate information than merely auto-betting to. If you auto-bet you often scare passive players in calling you down with a small pair but rarely scares them into folding. You lose the max when you are behind. This especially sucks in EP when you can't seem to give up trying to drive someone away and feel you have to keep representing AA. The only time you can get out of the hand is when someone has a monster and raises you. Even then most players feel obliged to at least call and see the next street so as to not fold on the same street. You just wasted two bets trying to drive players off of a hand much of the time. I'm not saying it is always wrong to bet with overcards but pick your spots. When the pot is being contested 4+ ways it is pretty unlikely you'll steal a pot. The only time everyone will fold is usually when they all missed too.

Something to remember is that when you raise pf they don't know you have overcards. They often assume you do but their bets or raises usually mean something. Even if they think you missed with overcards they have to fear you have a high pocket pair until you prove otherwise. Them testing you usually means they have something. It won't necessarily be something that can beat the hand you are drawing to but will almost certainly be a hand that is currently beating your overcrads or is drawing to something better than your overcards are drawing to. Telling the table you missed the flop is not such a bad thing. If they are paying attention they will immediately guess you have overcards which will allow you to bluff if a high card hits such as a K when you actually have AQ. You therefore have more outs than you really do because you not only have the outs that make your hand but the ones that look like they make your hand too. You'd be surprised how much these types of bluffs will work against players who are even remotely paying attention. Against calling stations don't bother though.

[car ramrod]

A good point droolie made, how big the field your betting into is. If there are 4+ a bet is not folding anyone out. If it is hu I tend to bet most of the time.

Also if you have backdoor flush or str8 draw added it makes your hand a lot stronger.

If the flop is connected or has 2 suit cards you will get more calls.

These are tough hands to play, too many people (myself included) tend to auto bet after a pfr, and its important to learn when and why. SSHE has good section on this, but a lot of it is situational, so keep good notes on who your betting into.

[imported_Reaction]

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getting 8:1 you should at least see the turn with 2 overcards.

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Let's follow the SSHE advice and say our overcards are worth 0.5 each since sometimes we still lose when we hit them. So we have about 3 outs &gt; 14:1. However, two of them put three to a flush, so these two are worth even less plus it gives anyone with a club a redraw to a flush. I wouldn't count these two as outs since they're practically worthless. Add to all this that we're facing three opponents our overcards drop in value a bit more. So, we have more or less between 1.5-2 outs &gt; 22:1. That's my reasoning here for not calling. Anyone with any comments on this is welcomed.

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You may be discounting too much... or I may not be discounting enough:

I have to go back and look at specific examples in SSHE, but I took it that "0.5 discount for times we hit and still lost" to include things like flushes, straights, Fulls, Quads, reverse dominated, etc.

[johnc]

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hahaha! are you guys serious? am i really that LAGgish? people call our preflop bet (1 being a poster), the flop comes and suddenly we're folding AK to a pair of 8s or flush draw?

there are 3 people in the hand (1 which folds to a single bet), and suddenly our AK is no good, someone is on a straight draw, another on a flush draw, hell, let's give the last guy in the hand a slowplayed set- why not?

maybe it's just me, and if it is, please free me from my LAGGish ways!!! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Give me a break!! You have NOTHING! ZIP! ZERO! NADA on a board full of draws! And what you do have, if paired stands a great chance of helping someone else! . Seriously, what do hope to accomplish by betting this flop? A semi-bluff? Taking it down right now? A value bet? Then where does that leave you on the turn? Facing a big pot with a loosing hand and hardly any chance to take it, many crying calls all the way to the river. Get out of the hand before you become married to the pot.

[Octopus]

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2. Check, planning to raise if MP1 checks, MP2 bets, and SB folds; and to fold to all other combinations.

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This is an interesting move, and I have done it myself several times. Now, what will you do if reraised?

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Call planning to fold on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[@bsolute_luck]

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hahaha! are you guys serious? am i really that LAGgish? people call our preflop bet (1 being a poster), the flop comes and suddenly we're folding AK to a pair of 8s or flush draw?

there are 3 people in the hand (1 which folds to a single bet), and suddenly our AK is no good, someone is on a straight draw, another on a flush draw, hell, let's give the last guy in the hand a slowplayed set- why not?

maybe it's just me, and if it is, please free me from my LAGGish ways!!! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Give me a break!! You have NOTHING! ZIP! ZERO! NADA on a board full of draws! And what you do have, if paired stands a great chance of helping someone else! . Seriously, what do hope to accomplish by betting this flop? A semi-bluff? Taking it down right now? A value bet? Then where does that leave you on the turn? Facing a big pot with a loosing hand and hardly any chance to take it, many crying calls all the way to the river. Get out of the hand before you become married to the pot.

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you see nothing, i see a live hand worth a bet. you see a board that hit someone; i see a hand that might have missed them. you see getting "married" to a hand; i see a hand i can get away from.

different perspectives i guess. check/fold all day if you want. i think it is poor poker.

[chipolino]

Well put droolie.