KK with an ace on turn

[jedi]

While I think it's clear that hero needs to bet the turn, what does he do if check-raised by 1) Laggy BB, or 2) unknown SB?

1) If laggy BB raises, I think we call down, but do we call down even if unknown SB called the bet AND the raise behind us?

2) If SB raises, hero has been showing strength the entire way and SB is obviously not concerned about the Ace, is this a turn fold?

And if both people call, do we check behind on the river (if checked to?) Do we pay off 1 bet? Do we pay off 2 bets if SB leads, and laggy BB raises?

[MHarris]

I like betting the turn with 2 opponents. You can't really put either player on a narrow range of hands here, and since one of them may have picked up a draw on the turn, there may be more river cards that hurt you than you think. The pot is pretty big now, and even though your opponents would be correct to call here with any pair/draw, giving them infinite odds is bad policy. If I'm called by the SB, I like checking behind on the river.

[MHarris]

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If laggy BB raises, I think we call down, but do we call down even if unknown SB called the bet AND the raise behind us?

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That's a pretty ugly spot to be in, and if BB c/r's the field, it should be an easy laydown. That's bad news, even coming from a LAG.

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2) If SB raises, hero has been showing strength the entire way and SB is obviously not concerned about the Ace, is this a turn fold?

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I'm calling down from there. I've seen too many unknowns make a play like that with hands like TT-77, etc.

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And if both people call, do we check behind on the river (if checked to?) Do we pay off 1 bet? Do we pay off 2 bets if SB leads, and laggy BB raises?

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I like either checking behind the river or paying off 1 bet, but no more.

[Rake_in]

2 things I failed to mention in my original post is that the Ace creates a straight draw on the board, but it's very hard to put either player on KJ or KT. Additionally, the pot is large by the turn so protecting it should be a concern.

[swatkaizen]

Bet the turn.

Give these guys (especially a LAG who may be holding Axs) another opportunity to fold. You've shown aggression at every point. You 3 bet an UTG raiser and then raised the flop. They have no reason not to put you on AQ, QQ, AA, AK, etc. I think it would be very hard for them to c/r you here even if they did hold an A. It would be too easy for you to come right back and RR. (This of course would depend on their perception of you.)

Since a c/r is unlikely, play as if the A helped and bet. Checking almost ensures a call down by any A (and gives another free card).

If they call, now you can check behind the river or you might consider one last bet if you think they are likely to fold more than once in 13.5 times. (You would be betting into a protected pot since you have 2 callers, so they are less likely to put you on KK or a bluff and more likely to put you on the strong holdings listed above).

[Nate tha' Great]

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If they call, now you can check behind the river or you might consider one last bet if you think they are likely to fold more than once in 13.5 times. (You would be betting into a protected pot since you have 2 callers, so they are less likely to put you on KK or a bluff and more likely to put you on the strong holdings listed above).

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The river is a value bet, not a bluff.

[swatkaizen]

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If they call, now you can check behind the river or you might consider one last bet if you think they are likely to fold more than once in 13.5 times. (You would be betting into a protected pot since you have 2 callers, so they are less likely to put you on KK or a bluff and more likely to put you on the strong holdings listed above).

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The river is a value bet, not a bluff.

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Interesting. Could it be both or just one or the other depending upon how confident you are of your decision?

For example, if you knew your opponents well enough to say that because of the way they played this hand and hypothetically called the A turn that there was a 95% chance at least one of them holds an A, would it be a bluff then?

I'm think there's a distinction that I'm missing because I was thinking it might be a bit of both and which is was would depend on how confident (or not) you were of you're opponents holdings. Can you explain a bit more for me?

[Willluck]

you gotta bet here

[Rake_in]

I forgot to mention in my original post that checking behind on the turn is likely to induce a bluff on the river from the big blind, though most of you probably know that.

I'm not making anyone with an ace fold this turn - definetly not from a LAG in a big pot (who would probably checkraise my turn bet), and definetly not from the small blind. He has already devoted 5 small bets to the pot, calling down the entire way - if he picks up an ace on the turn, he's here to stay - a turn or river bet is not going to make him fold.

On the other hand I could be getting called down by a worse pair. If I were to bet on the turn I'm not betting again on the river unless I have a read on both players as being loose or aggressive. If only the LAG calls my turn bet, I'm betting again on the river because his aggression tells me I would have heard of an ace by now (if he raises me on the river I'm kicking myself in the balls and pressing the call button). Also, since he's loose, I'm confident that I am valuebetting the best pair on the river, as long as he doesn't raise the turn. This is the same principle as if I was up against two opponents - if they are both very loose I could be getting called down by a worse pair. If they are both very aggressive I would have gotten raised on the turn. If one is loose and one is aggressive (forgetting about other stats for this example), I still know that I'm most likely ahead on the river so I'm betting again.

Anyone who is a "tight" player will not smooth call a 3bet preflop in the small blind and then cold call on the flop unless he has a very strong hand and he is very passive (also - this flop is practically draw free making me even more inclined to believe that the unknown small blind is loose). I could have used this information to decide that this player is probably loose and I could have bet this turn again, knowing that I might get called by a worse pair but I can safely fold to a raise.

[Nate tha' Great]

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If they call, now you can check behind the river or you might consider one last bet if you think they are likely to fold more than once in 13.5 times. (You would be betting into a protected pot since you have 2 callers, so they are less likely to put you on KK or a bluff and more likely to put you on the strong holdings listed above).

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The river is a value bet, not a bluff.

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Interesting. Could it be both or just one or the other depending upon how confident you are of your decision?

For example, if you knew your opponents well enough to say that because of the way they played this hand and hypothetically called the A turn that there was a 95% chance at least one of them holds an A, would it be a bluff then?

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No, then it would be a check.

I'm about as big a proponent of the "there are more good things that can happen if you bet" school of thought and probably play the river more aggressively than just about anyone on these forums. But I don't think that you have any material amount of bluffing equity here. The kind of player that draws to a weak Ax draw on this flop is not folding once he gets there.