Theory: optimal blind defense?

[Nigel]

I've always defended the SB/BB at about 85/50 for the 1/2 structure, but lately I've been thinking that I could possibly add many more hands. Is anyone here (peter rus?) defending significantly more hands with great success?

How does one even beging to find the optimal number of hands to defend with when there is such a huge, huge difference between the win rates when choosing to defend (some relatively neutral number of BB's win/loss) opposed to choosing to just fold and automatically forfeit .25 or .50 BB's.

I'm hoping this topic is of some interest and we can get a good discussion going.

Thanks,

Nigel

[vmacosta]

Sorry, I might just be dumb or tired, but this post is kinda confusing. I'm not wuite sure what the 85/50 refer to and cant figure out your point about it being hard to figure the optimal # of hands.

I would say, however, that a good SH player can often defend far greater range than full-game player since he as a lot of practice being oop with junk. I bet the best player in the world playing against 1 or more very bad players could defend every hand.

[Buckshot]

It's funny b/c blind defense is so stupid sometimes. There are some really good blind defenders and then there are some really retarded defenders that think they're good because they cracked aces on the button. BUT...If I were to defend the blinds with optimal frequency I would choose hands that have a mathematical advantage vis-a-vis the range of hands my opponent could have. And this only works if I have reliable knowledge against who I'm defending the blinds.

~stephen

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
It's funny b/c blind defense is so stupid sometimes. There are some really good blind defenders and then there are some really retarded defenders that think they're good because they cracked aces on the button. BUT...If I were to defend the blinds with optimal frequency I would choose hands that have a mathematical advantage vis-a-vis the range of hands my opponent could have. And this only works if I have reliable knowledge against who I'm defending the blinds.

~stephen

[/ QUOTE ]well this strategy is not nearly good enough, as having pot odds against an opponents range is not enough if they are very aggro and good postflop, conversely ill open my standards up against weaker players who will only be opening with better hands as they easy to read, give free cards etc.

[Buckshot]

[ QUOTE ]
as having pot odds against an opponents range is not enough if they are very aggro and good postflop, conversely ill open my standards up against weaker players who will only be opening with better hands as they easy to read, give free cards etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that what I said? You're saying you'd choose a range of hands vs a certain opponent. I'm saying the same thing but I have a mathematical foundation for what hands I choose. I'm not about to make a regular habit of defending with 82o just because I think my opponent is weaker.

I'm not sure any one particular player who plays well postflop can get the best of me EVERY time I decide to pick a hand to defend with, regardless of their aggressiveness. Conversely, I'm not saying I'm a professional HU player but I like my chances vs anyone. I ain't skeert.

~stephen

[legend42]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not about to make a regular habit of defending with 82o just because I think my opponent is weaker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you should. There are some really bad headsup players out there. I have a guy at my game whose raising standards are fairly tight, will always follow through on any flop, but will fold to a check-raise every time he misses.

For instance, if the flop is K 7 5, he'll fold AQ, JJ, etc. to any kind of playback. You're telling me you're not going to defend 95% of the time vs. this guy?

[Nigel]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I might just be dumb or tired, but this post is kinda confusing. I'm not wuite sure what the 85/50 refer to and cant figure out your point about it being hard to figure the optimal # of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 85/50 refers to the percentage of times you choose to fold to a steal attempt. 85% in the SB, and 50% in the BB seem to be the industry standard. They are basically the numbers you end up with when choosing a relatively decent starting hand selection. The ineresting thing though, is that when playing that strategy you potentially end up with an enormous difference in your BB/hand win or loss rate than if you choose to fold pre-flop. So, it appears that we should be continuing to add hands as long as it does not bring the overall average down.

So, if you break even, on average, when you choose to defend your BB, but lose .5 BB by choosing to fold your overall avg. is, of course, going to be a .25BB/hand loss. Therefore, even if you could play all the hands you are folding for a -.49BB/hand loss (which I would imagine would be possible if you are breaking even with the hands you are choosing to defend with) you stand to improve your overall average (unless it has negative metagame considerations, but I would think, if anything, it would be the opposite). The problem becomes that blind defending situations for each individual hand comes up relatively infrequently, and each situation in itself is so heavily opponent dependent that it makes the "long run" essentially out of reach, and leaves us with inadequate sample sizes to draw meaningful conclusions from playing around with minor strategy changes.

Hopefully this clears up for you what I was trying to say, and you can see why it is not so clear cut to me as to how to arrive at the optimal number of hands to defend with.

Nigel

Legend, what do you do with JJ, AQ on K-7-5 board to a BB checkraise?

[StacysMom]

[ QUOTE ]
Legend, what do you do with JJ, AQ on K-7-5 board to a BB checkraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im clearly not legend, but I would generally call down with JJ, letting them bet a worse hand the whole way, and betting if checked to. for AQ it depends on their aggression level. I eiher peal one off and fold the turn UI, or 3 bet if they are real aggro. Betting turn, check behind river.

[legend42]

[ QUOTE ]
Legend, what do you do with JJ, AQ on K-7-5 board to a BB checkraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on the opponent of course, but I'd need to have a good read to lay down on the flop, and it certainly wouldn't be my default play every time after someone has been consistently check-raising me from the blind.

My point was that with this opponent, it always pays to see a flop, no matter what your cards.