I wait to raise the turn with 88. Things don't go so well from there.

[Nigel]

9 handed. I have 88 in MP. Also, I am playing higher than my comfort level.

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, I only call with the 8's, button raises, SB folds, BB calls. 5 to the flop.

Flop is 625r and BB bets out, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, I call (I am planning on raising a good turn card and also seeing what the PFR's and BB's action is on the flop, and button only calls.

Turn is a 7 giving me the OE straight, but unfortunately, it's now checked to me, so there goes the turn raise. I bet. All call.

River is a K. Checked to me, I check to PFR on button, he bets, all fold. I make the crying call and lose to the rivered K.



Questions:

Does my not raising the flop cost me this pot? (I'm thinking the raiser calls anyway if he was willing to call a BB on the turn with K high and 2 people to act after him.)

Even though it appears AK got there, my crying river call is a must closing the action on a 13.25BB pot, no?

Sorry if this hand is somewhat standard, but as I said it was higher than I usually play and I felt like I had a chance at winning this somehow if I had played the hand differently.

Thanks,

Nigel

[ChewyMint]

If it's me, I am raising the flop. I don't see how the button can call 2 bets with AK on the flop, and the fact of the matter is that very few turn cards won't be scary. Get your money in while you have the best hand.

I like the call on the river, especially since everyone else folded. If it's checked to him, he bets and gets called before you, a fold makes sense, but in this situation you call with a pot that size.

ChewyMint

[clownshoes]

you must raise the flop, your hand is way too vulnerable to wait until the turn

[Nigel]

I don't disagree that raising the flop is best, but unless the pre-flop raiser is folding (I am wondering if he would have) I don't see any way to protect my hand here on the flop. Nobody is folding for 1 additional small bet. Doesn't that change things in this hand?

Nigel

[ChewyMint]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is folding for 1 additional small bet. Doesn't that change things in this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, but the PFR would have to call 2 bets cold with just two overs in this spot. He may call one bet to close the action, but calling two with people left to act won't happen very often.

ChewyMint

[flawless_victory]

you played it good. i like a thin river value bet if this was an internet game, because ppl will call with any pair and maybe AQ (fold is someone raises). the PFRs turn call with KQ is quite bad and you got unlucky.

[lil feller]

If villian has what we think he has, two overs, a flop call for one bet is super easy, whether he's closing the action or not. If you raise, however, he'll be getting 7:1 on the call. Given implied odds, this is still good enough, but your raise might make him believe that his outs are no good, and he may fold. The bottom line on the flop is you can't force him to make a mistake w/out raising, and waiting for the turn assumes a lot of variables.

After you just call, and so does everybody else, the turn starts with 7bb, your bet makes it 8. Given the action villian can probably safely assume that his overs are good, and 8:1 is more than enough, especially if you're willing to pay off when he hits. Again, you arn't forcing a mistake.

The short of it is raise the flop, give him a chance to make an error.

lf

[Nigel]

Ok, I figured I botched it by not raising the flop, thanks all for setting me straight.

My thinking was I wasn't folding the pre-flop raiser off of overs on the flop (based on the play I had seen from him thus far) so I figured I kind of needed the turn raise to be the spot to protect my hand, and well, things fell apart from there.

The reasons you guys have given to prefer the flop raise make sense, and will probably better define my opponents hands as well. So, next time I take a shot at this level, hopefully I get it right. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks again,

Nigel

[JimmyV]

Good thread all around.

If you've REALLY got a solid read that the PFR won't release overcards on a rag flop, then you played it correctly. Otherwise I agree with the other posts and think you need to put pressure on the hand that you know has two overcards (or an overpair that you can learn about now rather than more expensively later).

JimmyV

[LarsVegas]

You played OK. However, it's a TERRIBLE turn call by AK and you can't really give him credit for that specific hand when he calls. Actually I would be leaning more towards something like A-9s, which would at least give him a gutshot straight draw on the high side and the pretty much just as useful Ace as what would be the case with AK here (both lose to two pair hands, and there won't be any AQ or AJ out there).

lars