KJs HU OOP on turn and river

[xwillience]

on the flop you have virtually nothing i think check and fold if u get a free turn card lead out and they might fold. its just a nasty situation to be in and nothing can have much +ev

the only other thing i can think of is to try a semi-bluff check raise. check raise if he bets the flop and lead out on the turn and that might show enough strength to get him to fold? not sure tho

[TheMainEvent]

Well I guess for the sake of discussion I'll go ahead and disagree with everyone. I just don't like raising from the blinds with hands that don't have any real showdown value UI. Furthermore, I don't like betting the turn or river either. If your PF raise and bet on an A-high flop didn't scare him, I don't think he's folding much on the turn and river either.

[Aaron W.]

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Your bet is fine on the turn. You have folding equity, a gutshot and I think that you would have heard from an A on the flop. Maybe he's scared of his kicker, but your turn bet is fine.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say c/r the river. It might be a little too advanced for 1/2. If it is let me know.

edit- now that i think about it im not sure this line would be best. ill mull some more.

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The check-raise thought didn't occur to me at the time, but it certainly has some intrigue. There was a post in SS that advocates this play in a similar circumstance. I didn't intend to mimic that hand at all with this one. I don't know how the aggressiveness of those games (generically) compares to the 1/2 weak-tight Paradise games I find, but it's a good play against someone aggressive enough to bluff or value bet a pair, but is tight enough to not want to pay off a river check-raise with such a hand. It's certainly an option to consider (I hardly ever go for river check-raises).

[imported_The Vibesman]

I must admit, I play these types of hands horribly.

With UTG+1 calling the whole way, there are a few possibilities as to what he had. Suited ace with a weak kicker (if he would limp in EP with that), low made pair and gutshot draw (again, if he would limp with low suited connectors) or a small pocket pair (seems the most likely limping hand in that position). The only thing you are beating at showdown is a completely busted str8 draw, I think, and I can't see many players limping early position with a two-gapper (of course, i do see that on micros a lot, but I am assuming people play a tiny bit tighter at 1/2 than at .50/1). So I can't see any way checking will win you the pot. There is a possibility that opponent has 6-7, and he will definitely fold that if you bet, but he also may very well fold some hands here that could beat you. There are 6 BBs in the pot, I think (at this point in the hand) it is worth throwing another bet at it in hopes of getting him to fold a better hand. I think it's the only chance to win. Checking could also cost you the pot, in the off chance that you check and he bets that busted gutshot 6-7 and you fold. I realize that it is unlikely that he has that, I am thinking small pair of some sort.

Long and short, I think the river bet is the only realistic chance to win. Pot's big enough for me to give it a shot, fold to a raise.

edit, after reading other responses: I had not addressed anything but the river, but I would fire at this flop after raising pre-flop, with only two limpers. Of course, I fire at a lot of flops after raising pre-flop, esp if it comes up w/ an ace, as anyone without one will almost immediately give credit to the pre-flop raiser for having one. I would also fire at the turn, as many will call the small flop bet on the draw but will fold the large turn bet. It is only after the turn call that I put opponent on a pair.
I hadn't really considered a check-raise; opponent may check thru w/ a small pair and have us beaten, opponent may call the checkraise due to the fact that the pot will now be about 10 bb's before rake and he has already invested one bet on the river. Plus we are risking 2 BB's at this point to win the 6 in the pot at start of river action, which seems to make it a worse investment. I'm interested in arguments to the contrary, however.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I guess for the sake of discussion I'll go ahead and disagree with everyone. I just don't like raising from the blinds with hands that don't have any real showdown value UI. Furthermore, I don't like betting the turn or river either. If your PF raise and bet on an A-high flop didn't scare him, I don't think he's folding much on the turn and river either.

[/ QUOTE ]

With at most three players in the pot, how often do you expect to get to the showdown?

[TheMainEvent]

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With at most three players in the pot, how often do you expect to get to the showdown?

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More often than I'd like. And being out of position gives me less control over this.

[Aaron W.]

In general, you should be willing to bet the flop against two or fewer opponents with a very wide range of hands. And this becomes more true if you raised preflop.

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say c/r the river. It might be a little too advanced for 1/2. If it is let me know.

[/ QUOTE ]

GoT wanna-be [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Villian seems a little loose, and a little aggressive. Hmmmm. This is a tough one.

Betting the river can't be right, because he's almost certainly not calling with any hand you beat, and he's not folding any hand you're behind after coming this far.

So, we check the river. I think he'll check behind a fair number of hands that beat us. Most notably small-mid pocket pairs. There were no draws on the flop except a super ghetto-fab gutshot straight draw, and if he has a 2 or a 4, he almost certainly has a pair of them unless he's a total donkey.

Check-calling is bad I think, because we will only beat a bluff, and I don't think villian is going to bluff this river very often. Sure, he may think he's bluffing, but those pair of 6s are probably good.

Check-raising brings a new little dynamic into it. When he's bluffing he will fold to the checkraise. However, there is no bluffing hand he can have that beats us, so it's really no advantage to us. Especially when you consider that he's going to call with hands that beat us. The question becomes, will he bet a small pair (either pockets, or 3s/5s) and then be willing to fold it to a check-raise. Honestly, I don't think most 1/2 villians are going to bet here often enough for the check-raise to be worthwhile, because I don't think many of them are capable of folding a better hand to it

Check-folding is the only option left. I think that's the best play.

[DeathDonkey]

I totally agree with mmbt0ne. I would have played the other streets the same FWIW.

-DeathDonkey

[Entity]

Hey homie,

I check and fold and move on to the next hand. My handrange on him is a little bit of a guesstimate but we've got 22 and 44 here, a weak pocket pair (that isn't usually folding), a weird hand like JT sometimes, and a weak Ace occasionally. I don't think there's enough of a reason to value-bluff the river here given that he doesn't seem particularly inclined to fold better hands and even though he's aggressive, there isn't a very wide range you're ahead of.

I like preflop, flop, and turn.