PL Omaha hand

[Zag]

I've been playing PL Omaha High on Party all morning, and I have to say that it is great. I love that feeling when I have the nuts and 3 people are calling me down, and it happens so much more often in Omaha than in Hold'em. And they do call me down (which is inexplicable because I have yet to show down anything less than the nuts).

Anyway, I am really just a beginner at Omaha High, so any advice at all is very welcome. Obviously, I've got the "play for the nuts only" down pat, but I am still unsure when to play a drawing hand strong.

A couple of hands:

Hand #1: I have J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and get a free play in the BB, after 4 or 5 limpers.

Flop is 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], giving me a weak flush and a straight flush draw. Do you bet out here? I bet, got one caller. Turn was a blank and I checked, he bet pot, and I folded.

Hand #2: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the button. 5 limpers but no raise to me. I consider calling for the cheap flop, but fold. Do you call here?

Flop was K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], which would have given me a couple of hundred outs to the nuts or near nuts. (Actually, 10 outs for nuts, 4 outs for hands I feel pretty good about, and eight diamonds for K-high flushes.)

If you had called here, is this a draw worth betting?

Thanks in advance. Zag

[Greg (FossilMan)]

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Obviously, I've got the "play for the nuts only" down pat, but I am still unsure when to play a drawing hand strong.

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Whenever there is a good enough chance they all fold, or whenever your draw is so strong that you're likely to be the favorite even over a made hand. The nice thing about hands like this, when you crack the top set after getting it all in on the flop, is that they so often think you're a maniac for raising and reraising with just a draw. Many of them just don't get it that you held the hand most likely to win at that point.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #1: I have Jd 5d 6d 7c and get a free play in the BB, after 4 or 5 limpers.

Flop is 7d 9d 2d, giving me a weak flush and a straight flush draw. Do you bet out here? I bet, got one caller. Turn was a blank and I checked, he bet pot, and I folded.

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No, I seldom bet out here, unless maybe it's heads-up or 3-handed already. The problem is position. If they all fold now, that's great. Anything else, and you're out of position and have NO idea where they're at. And, when you do know where they're at, you're beat and have to fold. ;-)

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Hand #2: Kd 2d 4c 6c on the button. 5 limpers but no raise to me. I consider calling for the cheap flop, but fold. Do you call here?

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Usually.

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Flop was Ks 3d 5d ... If you had called here, is this a draw worth betting?

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Usually, yes. Especially since you're on the button. If a really bad turn card comes, like the board pairing, it makes a HUGE difference that they must act before you. Pretty sweet when they check, you don't think they're trapping, you bet, and they fold showing something like Ad 4d 6c 7c, where they had you in a world of hurt. Of course, if you had been first to act, they maybe bet the turn after you check, and now you fold, not knowing that this was a check-raise bluff opportunity.

Position is more important in PLO than in almost any other version of poker.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Zag]

Thanks, Greg. I think you have just doubled my knowledge. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Paul2432]

One quick point. Even the nuts is a hand that should sometimes be folded. For example, you hold 7643 rainbow and get a free play in the blind. Flop comes 9h8h5s. Check-fold is quite likely the correct play here, especially against three or four opponents. Don't get free-rolled.

One other quick point. Don't overvalue AAxx pre-flop. JT98 double suited is a much better hand.

Paul

[muck_nutz]

"One other quick point. Don't overvalue AAxx pre-flop. JT98 double suited is a much better hand."

Really? You take JT98 (however you want it, double suited if thats what you want) and I'll pick AAxy unsuited, without x or y being a court card, equal, or of the same suit as either of the aces or of each other. We push all in preflop and run them down. How much better is your hand do you think?

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Of course, if you can get it all in preflop, the AAxy hand is better. But, if there's going to be action on multiple streets, the double-suited run of four will usually play better.

Overall, your EV will likely be higher with the JT98 than the AAxy. In most games/situations.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Graham]

Heh, from what I've seen from many online players, AAxx is the biggest negative EV hand going...it comes presupplied with glue I reckon.

[crockpot]

i check and fold on hand 1. your flush is just too weak.

as for hand 2, if you are even considering playing this hand, you really don't understand how to play this game against a loose field. you say you have the "play for the nuts" down pat. how many nut hands can you build with a K642? if you do hit a nut hand with it, how likely is it to be outdrawn? get out of Dodge.

check out the "starting out in pot-limit omaha" section on my website (check profile). it should give you some ideas. maybe i'll have to avoid you at the tables afterward [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

[crockpot]

twodimes simulation

i think a good general rule is: if phil hellmuth wrote it in a book, it is likely to not be true.

[crockpot]

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...it comes presupplied with glue I reckon.

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no, to most of them it's pre-supplied with chip repellant that pushes them away from the person's stack as fast as possible.