Properly Announcing a Raise? Help....

[dabluebery]

Ok. I'm going to describe the following scenario. I've looked through Robert's Rules, and it's inadequate for answering this specific question. I'm asking if this raise is legal, or illegal. Assume NL holdem.

1) Player announces Raise. Player reaches for a stack of chips, puts it in the pot, reaches for another stack of chips, puts it in the pot. Player says "Make it $2,000" or whatever.

Is this legal?

I won't post my opinion, though I have one. I was at a home tournament with a bunch of guys I don't know, and after a player made a string bet, the house explained the proper procedures for making a raise. That's where this scenario came up. There were opinions on both sides of this, both for "legal," and "illegal." Please help.

Rob

[Richard Tanner]

Depends on the "Frendly" level of the game. By the strictest interperetation of the rules this is a string bet. You should announce raise, you then have two motions to do, the first to make the call, then the second to put in the raise. The exception is when you (as you should) annouce the size of the raise anytime before to you put in the raise chips, this includes after you've put in the call. In that case, you have as many trips as are needed to get the announced size in the pot.

Cody

[MSPatton]

If a player announces "Raise" and does not announce the
size of the raise, he has only one forward motion with
his chips to establish his raise. Once he stacked or moved
chips twards the pot, that would be the amount of the raise
no more, no less.

[LetsRock]

By the strictest interpretion of the rule, it is a string raise unless his first motion did not include enough chips to constitute a legal raise (usually at least equal to the previous bet). For example, if the opener was 800 and he only took 1500 into the pot with him, he hasn't completed his verbal contract yet, so his raise isn't valid until he adds more chips.

In a home game, a little lattitude could be given, depending on the timing.

Did he immediately reach back or did he scan the table and appear to cahnge his mind in the middle of his action?

If no action has taken place before he went back to his stack, then there is really no harm done. IF a player behind him started to act, then the string raise cannot be allowed.

It's always best to announce the amount before you start placing chips in the pot or take plenty with you on the first trip.

[Nate Finch]

As others have said, depends on the friendliness of the game. I try to stop this kind of behavior in my home game, because I know it's breaking rules that real games would enforce. It's been well explained above, so I won't add much here. My simple rule is this - it's always best to announce the size of your raise before moving any chips. That way there's no confusion and no danger of people accusing you of string betting.

-Nate

[Stew]

Actually both of these interpretations are incorrect, if a player says "Raise" then he may actually use two motions to place chips in the pot. If using the two motion method, the first placement of chips should be equivalent to the amount needed to call the previous bet. The second motion may then be the raise amount. If a two motion method is used, this is the only acceptable method. In other words, in motion one, you can't put in the amount to call, plus some chips, then go back for more.

When a player wish to raise, one of two things need to happen.

1). The player must verbally announce, "Raise". Then he may place in the betting area the amount needed to call the previous bet. He may then go back to collect the chips needed for the raise. OR, he may place all the chips in at one time. if more chips than the amount needed to call are placed in the pot initially, then he is obligated to the amount he has put in (or the minimum raise only if he put in more than the amount needed to call but less than the minimum.

A player may also announce, "Raise" and then verbally announce how much he wish to raise. If this option is used, he can put one chip in the pot at a time if he wishes, but he must indicate the amount of the raise prior to placing any chips in the pot.

2). A player may IN ONE MOTION place into the pot the amount of chips he wishes to raise with no verbal action. If this method is used, then only one forward motion is allowed and that player is bound by the amount placed in the pot. If less than the amount to call is placed in, then he may only call. If more than the amoutn to call, but less than 1/2 of the minimum raise, again he may only call. If enough chips to call and more than 1/2 the minimum raise, then the player is bound to the minimum raise, even if he only meant to call. Any amount over the minimum raise is considered the Raise amount (unless the game is limit).

[jmark]

As a side question, if the bet to you is $400 and you say "Raise... $1000". Does that mean you're going to put in $1400 or $1000?

[MSPatton]

That means you have to put $1400 in. You raised a $400 raise by $1000 = $1400
You would have to declare "Raise TO $1000" to put $1000 in